The Trinity, from the JW view.

[mee]

Originally Posted by wil

there we go. Now a response from mee would be in order. Of course if I indicated that is what we all do, and then traverse through 3d till we realize our divinity, would that throw a wrench in it?

so what about what Jesus said in revelation, he was back in heaven then .revelation 3;12

[mee]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Jesus gave up his divinity to become a man.

Once he paid the price for our "sins", he took up his divinity once again. While a man and without his divinity the Human Jesus was correct in saying the Father was greater than he.

revelation 3;12 Jesus was back in heaven then and he was saying MY GOD

[mee]

Originally Posted by cyberpi

Genesis 3:22 And the Jehovah God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil; and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever...

As one of us... as one of us... as one of us... hmmm.

Yes, as Jesus was the first- born of creation ,the first one that was created by Jehovah, it was Jesus in his pre-human life in heaven that was with Jehovah, and as we know from the bible everthing else in the whole universe was created through Jesus .

so he was talking to his first-born son when he said LET US MAKE MAN



At Genesis 1:26, we read that Jehovah said: "Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness."


To whom was he addressing these words? Referring to the spirit creature who became the perfect man Jesus, the apostle Paul said: "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; because by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and upon the earth." (Colossians 1:15, 16)

Yes, it seems logical that at Genesis 1:26, Jehovah was speaking to his only-begotten Son, the "master worker," who was at his side during the creation of the heavens and the earth. (Proverbs 8:22-31)

The similarity of the expression at Genesis 3:22 suggests that Jehovah was again speaking to the one closest to him, his only-begotten Son.

[Thomas]

Hi Mee —

Originally Posted by mee

so he was talking to his first-born son when he said LET US MAKE MAN

You're confusing texts here ... the Son is the only begotten of the Father, and the firstborn of all creation ...

It is a nonsense to think the author of the Pentateuch knew or assumed it was the Son of God. Where does the Father introduce the Son to the sacred scribe?

Also, by your own analogy, as God spoke before anything was created, to whom was He speaking? By your own argument, it must be to an uncreated being, His only-begotten Son, and by this same argument, Christ being uncreated, and therefore God.

Originally Posted by mee

At Genesis 1:26, we read that Jehovah said: "Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness."

Said to whom? And what is the likeness that God, and to whom He spoke, share in common, other than Divinity?

Originally Posted by mee

To whom was he addressing these words? Referring to the spirit creature who became the perfect man Jesus...

Really? That doesn't make sense, because 'God' and a 'spirit creature' (which is an angel) are not alike at all, are they? One is created, one is uncreated. Again and again you fall foul of your own flawed logic — God and an angel is not the same thing at all.

Originally Posted by mee

the apostle Paul said: "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; because by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and upon the earth." (Colossians 1:15, 16)

Precisely ... 'firstborn' means that all creation was born in Him (first) before it appeared to itself (in creation) ... that is why St John calls Christ the Logos of God. 'Firstborn' does not mean 'created' as you constantly and erroneously assume, as the next verse goes on to say:
"For in him were all things created in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or dominations, or principalities, or powers. All things were created by him and in him. And he is before all: and by him all things consist." (Colossians 1:16-17).

Originally Posted by mee

Yes, it seems logical that at Genesis 1:26, Jehovah was speaking to his only-begotten Son, the "master worker," who was at his side during the creation of the heavens and the earth. (Proverbs 8:22-31)

Yes it does. I wonder why you then fail to see the obvious implication. You keep reading things that are not there into the text, to distort the things that are. If Jesus was at His Father's side during the creation, He was not created, was He?

"Father, I will that where I am, they also whom thou hast given me may be with me: that they may see my glory which thou hast given me, because thou hast loved me before the creation of the world" John 17:24

Originally Posted by mee

The similarity of the expression at Genesis 3:22 suggests that Jehovah was again speaking to the one closest to him, his only-begotten Son.

Your principle error is to assume God begets as creatures do.

God begat His Son of Himself, through no other agency. So the Son is nothing other than the Father (there is no mother), the Son is nothing more, the Son is nothing less ... because the Father is perfect, the Son is perfect, and the measure of the Son's perfection is all that the Father is ...

Whomsoever is begotten is the same in essence and substance as the begetter ... so the Son is the same in essence and substance as the Father.

To say the Son does not share in all that the Father is, and all that the Father has, is to deny the very word of Scripture: "Because in him, it hath well pleased the Father that all fulness should dwell" (Colossians 1:19)

That "the Father is greater than I" is because the Father precedes the Son, but "I and the Father are one" because what proceeds from the Father is the essence and substance of the Father, by which the Son is constituted, or begotten, and it is the the Father's Divinity.

Everything the Father is, the Son is also.

Thomas

[17th Angel]

Originally Posted by Thomas

You keep reading things that are not there into the text, to distort the things that are.

I think we all do that from time to time...

[mee]

That Jehovah was truly the Father or Life-Giver to this firstborn Son and, hence, that this Son was actually a creature of God is evident from Jesus’ own statements.

He pointed to God as the Source of his life, saying, "I live because of the Father."
According to the context, this meant that his life resulted from or was caused by his Father, even as the gaining of life by dying men would result from their faith in Jesus’ ransom sacrifice.—Joh 6:56, 57.


If the estimates of modern-day scientists as to the age of the physical universe are anywhere near correct, Jesus’ existence as a spirit creature began thousands of millions of years prior to the creation of the first human. (Compare Mic 5:2.)
This firstborn spirit Son was used by his Father in the creation of all other things. (Joh 1:3; Col 1:16, 17)

This would include the millions of other spirit sons of Jehovah God’s heavenly family (Da 7:9, 10; Re 5:11), as well as the physical universe and the creatures originally produced within it.


Logically, it was to this firstborn Son that Jehovah said: "Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness." (Ge 1:26)

All these other created things were not only created "through him" but also "for him," as God’s Firstborn and the "heir of all things."—Col 1:16; Heb 1:2.

Not a co-Creator. The Son’s share in the creative works, however, did not make him a co-Creator with his Father.

The power for creation came from God through his holy spirit, or active force. (Ge 1:2; Ps 33:6)

And since Jehovah is the Source of all life, all animate creation, visible and invisible, owes its life to him. (Ps 36:9)

Rather than a co-Creator, then, the Son was the agent or instrumentality through whom Jehovah, the Creator, worked. Jesus himself credited God with the creation, as do all the Scriptures.—Mt 19:4-6;

[mee]

Originally Posted by Thomas

Hi Mee —



God begat His Son of Himself, through no other agency.

Thomas

yes ,Jesus was the only one created by Jehovah alone , everything else was created through Jesus.

Jesus was certainly unique ,he was the only one created by Jehovah alone .

ONLY-BEGOTTEN

The Greek word mo·no·ge·nes´ is defined by lexicographers as "single of its kind, only," or "the only member of a kin or kind." (Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, 1889, p. 417; Liddell and Scott’s Greek-English Lexicon, Oxford, 1968, p. 1144)

The term is used in describing the relation of both sons and daughters to their parents.

The Scriptures speak of "the only-begotten son" of a widow who lived in the city of Nain, of Jairus’ "only-begotten daughter," and of a man’s "only-begotten" son whom Jesus cured of a demon. (Lu 7:11, 12; 8:41, 42; 9:38)

The Greek Septuagint uses mo·no·ge·nes´ when speaking of Jephthah’s daughter, concerning whom it is written: "Now she was absolutely the only child. Besides her he had neither son nor daughter."—Jg 11:34.


The apostle John repeatedly describes the Lord Jesus Christ as the only-begotten Son of God. (Joh 1:14; 3:16, 18; 1Jo 4:9)

This is not in reference to his human birth or to him as just the man Jesus.

As the Lo´gos, or Word, "this one was in the beginning with God," even "before the world was." (Joh 1:1, 2; 17:5, 24)

At that time while in his prehuman state of existence, he is described as the "only-begotten Son" whom his Father sent "into the world."—1Jo 4:9.


He is described as having "a glory such as belongs to an only-begotten son from a father," the one residing "in the bosom position with the Father." (Joh 1:14, 18)

It is hard to think of a closer, more confidential, or more loving and tender relationship between a father and his son than this.

[Thomas]

Originally Posted by mee

yes, Jesus was the only one created by Jehovah alone, everything else was created through Jesus.

But nowhere does it say Jesus was created ... and as orthodoxy for 2,000 said Jesus was not created, the idea that He is a created being is your invention.

Originally Posted by mee

Jesus was certainly unique, he was the only one created by Jehovah alone.

Again, show me where it says 'created' ... as far as I can see, this is your interpretation, a JW tradition.

Originally Posted by mee

ONLY-BEGOTTEN

The Greek word mo·no·ge·nes´ is defined by lexicographers as "single of its kind, only," or "the only member of a kin or kind." (Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, 1889, p. 417; Liddell and Scott’s Greek-English Lexicon, Oxford, 1968, p. 1144) [LEFT]

The term is used in describing the relation of both sons and daughters to their parents.

The Scriptures speak of "the only-begotten son" of a widow who lived in the city of Nain, of Jairus’ "only-begotten daughter," and of a man’s "only-begotten" son whom Jesus cured of a demon. (Lu 7:11, 12; 8:41, 42; 9:38)

The Greek Septuagint uses mo·no·ge·nes´ when speaking of Jephthah’s daughter, concerning whom it is written: "Now she was absolutely the only child. Besides her he had neither son nor daughter."—Jg 11:34.

OK. But you're talking about creatures produced via natural means of procreation ... The Son of the Father was not by means of procreation, so what applies in one instance does not apply in this instance.

Originally Posted by mee

The apostle John repeatedly describes the Lord Jesus Christ as the only-begotten Son of God. (Joh 1:14; 3:16, 18; 1Jo 4:9)

Quite. But he's not suggesting a female deity somewhere who is the mother, is he ... so he's using the term in a specific context.

Originally Posted by mee

This is not in reference to his human birth or to him as just the man Jesus.

So ...

Originally Posted by mee

As the Lo´gos, or Word, "this one was in the beginning with God," even "before the world was." (Joh 1:1, 2; 17:5, 24)

... so ...

Originally Posted by mee

At that time while in his prehuman state of existence, he is described as the "only-begotten Son" whom his Father sent "into the world."—1Jo 4:9.

... so ...

Originally Posted by mee

He is described as having "a glory such as belongs to an only-begotten son from a father," the one residing "in the bosom position with the Father." (Joh 1:14, 18)

... so ...

Originally Posted by mee

It is hard to think of a closer, more confidential, or more loving and tender relationship between a father and his son than this.

... Exactly! And as God is perfect, the closeness is so close that the two are one! The Son is everything the Father is, and everything the Father has the Son has ... why would a loving parent hold anything back?

Jesus is God, because the Father gave the Son Himself.

If Jesus is created, He is adopted ... He certainly is not of the same nature as God, therefore not really the Son of God, for a nature reproduces itself.

In your words, Jesus was created by God, and adopted by Him ...

+++

Anyway you argue it, Mee, if Jesus is created, then He is not the perfect Son because He is not the Father — and when Jesus said "he who has seen me has seen the Father" he was not telling the truth, because you say He is different from the Father ...

Nor is the Father perfect because He did not create a Son as perfectly as He can ... for if He could, He would have given the Son every gift He possesses, the only gift He possesses ... all that He is.

Do you think the Father would ask the Son to do something that He Himself would not do? No. So if the Father asks the Son to give up His life, we can be sure that the Father had already given His life to His only-begotten Son ... and herein enters the Holy Spirit.

Thomas

[mee]

Prehuman Existence. The person who became known as Jesus Christ did not begin life here on earth.

He himself spoke of his prehuman heavenly life. (Joh 3:13; 6:38, 62; 8:23, 42, 58)

John 1:1, 2 gives the heavenly name of the one who became Jesus, saying: "In the beginning the Word [Gr., Lo´gos] was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god ["was divine," AT; Mo; or "of divine being," Böhmer; Stage (both German)].

This one was in the beginning with God." Since Jehovah is eternal and had no beginning (Ps 90:2; Re 15:3), the Word’s being with God from "the beginning" must here refer to the beginning of Jehovah’s creative works.

This is confirmed by other texts identifying Jesus as "the firstborn of all creation," "the beginning of the creation by God." (Col 1:15; Re 1:1; 3:14) Thus the Scriptures identify the Word (Jesus in his prehuman existence) as God’s first creation, his firstborn Son.

[Thomas]

Mee — Can you give me a definition of Jesus as you see Him?

Put another way ... before His 'prehuman' existance, who existed, in what way did He exist, and how?

In the Catholic Faith, Jesus Christ is "true God, and true man" ... and much theological thinking lies behind that definition.

What is the JW definition?

+++

As you know, we think you're misinterpreted 'firstborn of all creation' which means, as the text itself says, that all creation was in Him first ... not that He was created before anything else.

Rather then, we identify the Word as God, as St John does in his gospel:
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him: and without him was made nothing that was made."

Thomas

Thomas

[17th Angel]

Christ was the first creation made by god, and with god Christ helped to create mankind, the angels, the universe, our world, then all that stuff in the middle, and then god sent the begotten son Jesus Christ to be sacrafice for mans sin... Then he returned to be with his father, god... That is a rough Idea for ya. I know I am not mee, but sue me.

[mee]

Originally Posted by Thomas

Mee — Can you give me a definition of Jesus as you see Him?


What is the JW definition?



Thomas

Thomas

JW definition is the same as what the bible teaches


Jesus was the beginning of the creation by God .
he was the first-born of creation , but then everything else that was created was through this first-born son . he was the only one that was created by Jehovah alone.


its good to stick to what the bible really teaches