The Trinity of Christianity

[Marietta]

Greetings Kenod,
Anger is always destructive. No good ever comes from anger. If held in it causes sickness and unresolved anger eats away at a person eventually causing cancer.

Please give me an example in which you think anger brings about good.

Thank You, Midge

[Marietta]

Quahom1, Please explain what kind of a bridge anger builds?
Midge

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Marietta

Quahom1, Please explain what kind of a bridge anger builds?
Midge

An example: In boot camp, during "lizard patrol" (a week of survival training), the DI (drill instructor), had it out for one of the recruits. For six weeks he ragged on this guy (southern boy from South Carolina, about 6' 3" and 250 lbs, and redneck attitude), and intended to teach this kid a lesson. During "lizard patrol", the DI made it a point to "punish the company" everytime the "redneck" screwed up, or fell behind. If we failed surviving "lizard patrol week", then we all would have to start boot camp all over again (which now made the company of 65 bring pressure to bear on "redneck"). Of course "redneck" was getting angrier, and more depressed, and full of self-pity, so now we had to pull his load and deal with his emotional and psychological rebellion, plus we began to ostrisize him (not the right thing to do when survival is the issue).

Anyway, towards the end of the week, we were brought under fire (simulated battle with smoke grenades and a machine guns blazing away, at night, during the rainy early spring). We each carried 80 lbs knapsacks that we were ordered not to remove during the last few miles to base. We were coming to the last half mile to base, when we came to a ditch with 10 feet of water. There was a foot bridge made of wood, but the middle of it was missing. Normally we could jump the gap, but not with the weight of our knapsacks on our backs, and we couldn't remove them, nor could we fjord the ditches water (too deep), and we could not go around (the "enemy" was closing in behind us).

We were tired, frustrated and beat, and then "Redneck" came up the the front to see WTF was going on.

He was the angriest of us all. He began a stream of cussing and didn't care who heard him, then...he stopped.

He walked up to the end of the broken bridge, turned, looked at us and said, "I got an f'n idea". Then he loosened his knapsack straps, and wrapped one strap around his wrist...then he threw his knapsack over to the otherside (the strap still wrapped around his wrist). Then he literally ripped a plank away from its seating which created a three inch gap between two other planks at the end of bridge portrusion.

Then he told us what to do. He said, "Two of you stay on this side, and three of you on the other side, one sits on my knapsack. I'm gonna straddle the gap... two push one across and the other two pull one across. Make sure they step on the back of my calves, and on my shoulders, but don't step in the middle of my back, and DON'T LET GO OF MY F'N KNAPSACK."

And the next thing we knew, he hooked an ankle into the plank gap and splayed across the divide of the bridge, catching the other side with his hands. We were amazed at what he wanted us to do, but his cussing got us moving, and we sent three of the biggest guys over first, and kept two behind like he said.

For the next three minutes or so (it felt like hours), one by one our company crossed the "bridge", until one was left, and the "redneck".

By the time I went to cross, the "bridge" was slick with mud and rain soaked, and was sagging like a 30 year old plow horse. My foot hit the back of his legs, and proceeded to kick out behind me, and I landed prone and full weight on top of him. The next thing we both knew, we were hanging over the ditch with my arms over his shoulders. The company "receivers" grabbed me by my knapsack and pulled me up over the side. But "redneck" had had too much, and let go. Now he was hanging by the strap wrapped around his wrist, and was too damn tired to pull himself up. On top of that, his weight caused him to drop by three feet, from the edge of the bridge (jerking knapsack and shipmate along with it).

We didn't heroically lift him in dignity to his feet...No, we dragged him through the ditch to the side of the bridge footings and dragged him up the embankment. Then we carried him back to base, while someone elsed carried his knapsack (still attached to his wrist). His foot was a mess (severely strained), and he had "rope burn" to his wrist.

When we arrived at the barracks, we got the OOD (Officer of the Day) and he called for medical support. He kept looking at all of us in the strangest way. And then the DIs pulled up in jeeps, and they were royally ticked off...

"What the hell are you people doing here?" We carried out our orders, we said. "HOW in the F did you get across the ditch?" We told them. "Bull sh*t..." one said in disgust. Then our DI walked up, "No, that is what HE did." was his quiet response. Then he addressed "redneck". "You removed your knapsack..." (but it was a respectful and quiet tone).

Lifting his arm, "Redneck" grinned and said, "still attached to me, never left my possesion, SIR!" The DI nodded at the "spirit" of the law being kept, while still accomplishing the mission (which we later found out was never done successfuly before, as it wasn't supposed to be something to be accomplished at all).

...remember, we came in at the tail end of Vietnam...winning wasn't exactly a strong suite in the American psychy...

But we were a new generation of military, and popular shows like "McGuiver" and "Six million dollar man" were the choice of pallet for the "youngins" wanting to put on the uniform of our country.

Your "bridge from anger" example, as per your request...

v/r

Q

[kenod]

Originally Posted by Marietta

Greetings Kenod,
Anger is always destructive. No good ever comes from anger. If held in it causes sickness and unresolved anger eats away at a person eventually causing cancer.

Please give me an example in which you think anger brings about good.

Thank You, Midge

I disagree with your first two statements, but I do agree with your third.

Recently my 92 year old mother who is cared for in a nursing home, was being moved in a hoist as she cannot walk. She was dropped and now has four fractures in her legs. I was angry that such a situation should have occured so I set about to find out why, and to make sure it does not happen again. Already, staff training has been implemented, and procedures changed. I do not hold any anger towards those who were responsible for the accident. I thank God that I am able to honestly say that I forgive them. My anger was directed at the situation, and now that improvements have occured, my feelings have subsided.

I think your comment about anger being held in and causing physical and emotional problems is correct. I'm sure this is refelcted in Paul's statement in Ephesians 4:26

"Be ye angry, and sin not:
let not the sun go down upon your wrath"

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by kenod

I disagree with your first two statements, but I do agree with your third.

Recently my 92 year old mother who is cared for in a nursing home, was being moved in a hoist as she cannot walk. She was dropped and now has four fractures in her legs. I was angry that such a situation should have occured so I set about to find out why, and to make sure it does not happen again. Already, staff training has been implemented, and procedures changed. I do not hold any anger towards those who were responsible for the accident. I thank God that I am able to honestly say that I forgive them. My anger was directed at the situation, and now that improvements have occured, my feelings have subsided.

I think your comment about anger being held in and causing physical and emotional problems is correct. I'm sure this is refelcted in Paul's statement in Ephesians 4:26

"Be ye angry, and sin not:
let not the sun go down upon your wrath"

Which means: "Do something about it." Do not stew on the issue, but do something to rectify. And be quick before the anger overtakes reason. Anger, must be channeled by reason and determination, or else it will eat one alive.

Unlike other emotions, anger is a soul draining one, while physically empowering one (to a point). It is not a rejuvinating emotion, but one that when focused, can bring to bear the collective energy within one to a single point.

Even Jesus warned us about anger, and the use of anger for a purpose. Where? He told Judas (who was very angry with Jesus), "whatsovever you do, do quickly"...(e.g. carry out your mission, while your anger is focussed), lest you become but a lamenting ranter, with no solutions or goals.

v/r

Q

[kenod]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Unlike other emotions, anger is a soul draining one, while physically empowering one (to a point). It is not a rejuvinating emotion, but one that when focused, can bring to bear the collective energy within one to a single point.
v/r
Q

Yes, I think it is the energy that anger arouses that gives us the momentum to affect change. One cannot live at that level of emotional arousal all the time.

I believe that every emotion was given to us by God, and can be used for good, or it can be perverted. Unresolved anger is the problem, not anger itself.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by kenod

Yes, I think it is the energy that anger arouses that gives us the momentum to affect change. One cannot live at that level of emotional arousal all the time.

I believe that every emotion was given to us by God, and can be used for good, or it can be perverted. Unresolved anger is the problem, not anger itself.

In total agreement...

lol, still want me to speak before your congregation? ...

[wil]

lol I've gotta lotta love for you Q, and your ability to turn a phrase. You gotta book in ya, don't waste it! From what I've read the Gman and plenty others will grace the back cover with praises...

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by wil

lol I've gotta lotta love for you Q, and your ability to turn a phrase. You gotta book in ya, don't waste it! From what I've read the Gman and plenty others will grace the back cover with praises...

Yes, I've been told...it's a nasty habit of mine, pisses lots of people off too...problem is, I'm not aware that I'm doing it, when I do it, until after I do it, then told - I did it...

eh, what is it I did again?

[taijasi]

Originally Posted by kenod

I disagree with your first two statements, but I do agree with your third.

Recently my 92 year old mother who is cared for in a nursing home, was being moved in a hoist as she cannot walk. She was dropped and now has four fractures in her legs. I was angry that such a situation should have occured so I set about to find out why, and to make sure it does not happen again. Already, staff training has been implemented, and procedures changed. I do not hold any anger towards those who were responsible for the accident. I thank God that I am able to honestly say that I forgive them. My anger was directed at the situation, and now that improvements have occured, my feelings have subsided.

Kenod, it was not your anger that motivated you ... but your Love. Love is not passive, anger is not constructive. One of these produces negative results, the other positive. At best, your body benefitted from the adrenaline that helped you to take certain steps. And Love, was the purifier that washed your emotions free - of the poison.

Not anger, but Love ...

Namaskar,

taijasa

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by taijasi

Kenod, it was not your anger that motivated you ... but your Love. Love is not passive, anger is not constructive. One of these produces negative results, the other positive. At best, your body benefitted from the adrenaline that helped you to take certain steps. And Love, was the purifier that washed your emotions free - of the poison.

Not anger, but Love ...

Namaskar,

taijasa

Anger is an emotion. Love is a decision. Anger can be focussed by love to arrive at a decisive conclusion. He didn't make the error my friend...

v/r

Q

...do you understand what I am trying to point out? eternal vs. fleeting...consider.

[taijasi]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Anger is an emotion. Love is a decision. Anger can be focussed by love to arrive at a decisive conclusion. He didn't make the error my friend...

v/r

Q

...do you understand what I am trying to point out? eternal vs. fleeting...consider.

Sure, anger is a fleeting thing. There is nothing positive about it, except, that we can potentially use it to learn a lesson. But anger is not the lesson. LOVE is. I believe you said that ...

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by taijasi

Sure, anger is a fleeting thing. There is nothing positive about it, except, that we can potentially use it to learn a lesson. But anger is not the lesson. LOVE is. I believe you said that ...

anger is the drive behind the love, I also said that. And Taij, bless your heart, you missed the entire point of this debate. Maybe, because you never experience the kind of anger I (or others) are talking about.

I don't know. But I fail to see the continuation of this cat and mouse game you wish to apparently play.

I said my piece. Let those who understand, consider, and those who don't, forget about it...

[kenod]

Originally Posted by taijasi

Kenod, it was not your anger that motivated you ... but your Love. Love is not passive, anger is not constructive. One of these produces negative results, the other positive. At best, your body benefitted from the adrenaline that helped you to take certain steps. And Love, was the purifier that washed your emotions free - of the poison.
Not anger, but Love ...
Namaskar,
taijasa

Well, thank you for explaining my feelings to me

As I see it, there are no negative emotions ... even hate. It is all about how we control and direct our feelings.
Don't deny your anger - acknowledge it and harness it.

The fact is we are all individuals and respond differently - my wife, for instance, is a very placid person and does not experience extreme emotional highs and lows ... just as well coz she has to put up with me!

btw, it doesn't sound very "New-Agey" to me to be saying feelings are bad ... my NA inclined daughter would not at all like you saying that

For me, the basis of this discussion is what does the Bible say, and it seems obvious to me that there is Scriptural support for the positive expression of anger and hate.

[taijasi]

Lol, well - as you say, Q, God Bless that poor, misguided man, His Holiness the Dalai Lama, who is so terribly confused and misinformed as to what are and aren't helpful, healthy emotions. I borrow many of my views, and understandings, from his books Healing Anger, and Healing Emotions .... and THANK GOD I ran into you, Q & Kenod!!!

What WOULD I have ever done without you!?!

I mean, until you two kindly, angry gentlemen managed to put the fear of God into me, and bring me back from my pagan, misguided ways ... I was all ready here to believe that anger was a bad thing. AND, thank you also, Kenod, for getting me away from that terrible, new agey thinking - and then reminding me, also, that I had it all wrong to begin with. Boy, I'll tell ya, I don't know how I managed to get it so confused.

But don't worry, with you two gents here to enlighten, guide & rescue me from the depths of ignorance (and esentially, ANYthing that doesn't fit squarely into your Christian programming) ... I'm SURE I can't go wrong again. Unless, heaven forbid, I should DARE to think differently. Now now, we don't need that. That just screws things ALL up.

Look Q, if you wanna cop an attitude, start condescending, and behave like a general JERK, then coat it over with some cock 'n bull "I'm a good christian, saved and seated at the right hand of the Father's heavenly table ahead of you" crap ... then please, do go right ahead. Frankly, I don't give a damn about your military heroism, your high 'n mighty American ideals, and ANYthing that you've come to embrace - however holy & sacred - that sits down in there, somewhere, telling you you're BETTER than anyone else. Get over it.

Feel that? Yeah buddy. That's anger. Now DO something with it. Prove to me ... that you can walk on water. Christ could. Whatsamatter? Not there yet?

Oh. I see. Then I guess I'm in the same company I thought I was, after all. Ever heard the expression, Don't piss down my back and tell me it's raining?

Well then. Don't.

How many fights have you ever walked from? Anger is that little thing, along with pride, that won't let you. And there's a reason why Catholicism teaches that each of these, is one of the Seven Deadly Sins. Those antidotes, the Seven Cardinal Virtues, they mean something too. Or is all that ... just some theologian somewhere, whistlin' Dixie.

YOU TELL ME.

If I get angry, provoked or otherwise ... I know what to do with it. I can FEEL the toxins. My heart tells me, that it isn't healthy.

I sure don't need either of you fine fellas, or even the Dalai Lama in any of his books, to enlighten me about it ... although at least I know HH won't distort the facts.

What was your point? That anger can be a motivator? Ah well, I agree with that. It CAN be transformed into something better. And yes, it IS an emotion ... but an unhealthy one. Want proof? Just keep living with it. In it. Giving expression to it. Watch your physical health, your mental health, your emotional health ... deteriorate.

No DOCTOR has to tell you that, for $100 a minute, in this glorious, enlightened country of ours (everyone knows, doctors are gods around here). Common sense should. Experience should.

As for new age notions that all feelings are good, I have NO idea where you come up with that, Kenod. All emotions are part of the human experience. That much is true. And they CAN, each and every one of them, be OFLAGs - Opportunities For Learning And Growth. [Edit: okay, i do realize that many new-agey people say, "everything is meant to happen, nothing can be out of place, etc." - but I think that's a lot of BS. One cannot JUSTIFY wrong action, or poor choices, by saying, oh, on some level I MEANT to do that. Rationalizing things to fit one's behavior, new agey or otherwise, is still just rationalization.]

But if you think being angry, beats being (in) Love/Loving ... then I think somewhere the new age message got screwed around. Sorry, don't know what happened.

2nd Aspect of Trinity: LOVE
3rd Aspect of Trinity: the Spiritualizing Presence both operative in - and responsible for - the material world

Until we can live in this world, under the guidance of the 2nd Aspect, without reacting (you know, knee-jerk style), and without giving in to emotions such as anger, hate, and envy ... we are still crucified (and crucifying, the Christ within), rather than Resurrected. St. Paul died daily, by NOT giving in to the urge to get angry, or yielding to his emotional nature.

Emotions aren't bad, just as the thoughts of our mortal minds aren't bad. Nor is the flesh, the material nature. That's manicheism. That's a certain form of Gnosticism. But people fail to distinguish allegory, from literalism. There's a message, and I'm afraid it's been thoroughly misinterpreted.

As I see it, no religion has yet gotten it right. But for those who feel called to Christ's message, more power to them ... WHEN that power, empowers the Love. Otherwise, better to keep questioning, and following whatever path seems to resonate. Good is done, and God is served, in OTHER names than Christ Jesus. If a wo/man can't, or refuses to see and acknowledge that ... God help him/her.

Did I miss your point? I don't think so. Did I not make a small handful of points? I don't know, and I don't care. I've said what was on my mind, in my heart ... and came to me. I DO value the freedom, and the forum, by and in which this can take place!

Namaskar,

taijasa