The Trinity of Christianity - Page 15

Quahom1 · 09-23-2006, 12:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marietta

Hello Q, I understand where you are coming from now.

Boot camp is intended to create mind control alters. They use sleep depravation along with long hours of excessive exercise and Yes, ANGER. Anger is used in every form of mind control especially Monarch mind control.

With a clear mind without all the anger you should have been able to come upon the same or better way of crossing the ditch. Anger clouds the mind.

However what happened with the redneck (as you call him), was that his mind had reached a point of compartmentalization from trauma based mind control which gave him the ability to think with pinpoint accuracy to figure out how to cross the bridge. Once compartmentalization has occurred each portion of the mind thinks independently of the other and no compartment knows what the other has done or is about to do. What ever compartment is brought forward will act out its purpose and then another portion will come forward afterwards so the person will not remember what the other compartment had done if to traumatic to recall. Without this kind of mind control the average human being could never go to war and kill many, many people (strangers to them) and live with themselves afterwards. Many of the Vietnam vets have flash backs due to the mind control programing lifting (and not everybody is mind control material) and have a hard time functioning in society as a reproduction.

Lizard patrol very interesting term for those who have any knowledge of the NWO and those behind it.
Now please don't get me wrong, I am not saying that the young people who join the military are bad people or know anything about what is going on inside the armed forces. For the most part they truly think they are defending their country. Most if not all are ignorant of what will happen to them in boot camp. Boot camp is intended to makes mind control slaves out of the soldiers so they will carry out any command without second thought.

Now, I understand why you think it is ok to get angry and that is your choice. The two of us will just have to agree to disagree on this one.

Love and Light, Midge

LOL, Midge, Do I sound like a mind controled slave? I can assure you that from my small experience with the military, American service men and women are taught and encouraged, to ask questions, question answers, carry out orders. And there is a book of rules that must be adhered to called the Uniform Code of Military Justice, of which one of the highest rules, and subject to the stiffest penalties, if not followed is this:

Article 92 of the UCMJ says, "A general order or regulation is lawful unless it is contrary to the Constitution, the laws of the United States...." Both the Nuremberg Principles and the Army Field Manual create a duty to disobey unlawful orders. Article 509 of Field Manual 27-10, codifying another Nuremberg Principle, specifies that "following superior orders" is not a defense to the commission of war crimes, unless the accused "did not know and could not reasonably have been expected to know that the act ordered was unlawful."

Now, I'd like to give you a chance to see exactly what brainwashing the US soldier gets, and must adhere to during his career. I think you will find that the brainwashing is what Mom and Dad should have taught them when they were growing up:

These are the Punitive Articles of the Uniform Code of Military Justice...

Article 77 through the variations of Article 134. The punishments for such violations make civil criminal laws look like a slap on the wrist...

http://usmilitary.about.com/od/punit...cles/a/mcm.htm

Quahom1 · 09-23-2006, 01:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marietta

Dear taijasi,
I agree with you 100% but without the anger. Do not let them pull you into their trap of anger. Don't you see the IMO here.

I have never had a discussion with a christian that when giving a differing view from the one they held, that they didn't at some point end up getting very angry and nasty. It is unknowingly used as a means of vampiring energy.

I am sending calm and healing energy your way to surround you and keep you at ease.

I for one injoy reading what you post so keep up the good work.

With Love and Light, Midge

"Moderator hat on"

Careful. I remind you that you are on a Christian forum, and as such are not at liberty to begin libelous comments, for which you are no authority to start with...furhter more no one is an authority on what is correct and what is not, however, in this particular part of CR forum, Christianity is the main theme, hence the dominant thought. Finally, no one likes to be called or implied to be less than civil, particularly when the accuser has started off in much the same way.

"Moderator hat off"

v/r

Q

Quahom1 · 09-23-2006, 01:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by taijasi

Hmm, I think I'll keep track of what I do and don't believe in, if that's okay with you, Q.

I believe in a Trinity, as well as in a Septenate (for reasons that I hope are obvious, this being the Christian forum

). And I believe the Trinity existed from (almost) the earliest stages of Creation, and for trillions (sic) of years prior to the evolution of our solar system.

The Trinity I believe in is reflected, much as light in a mirror, down the through worlds ... until it finds an echo, and literally an embodiment in every single atom. If we began speaking of the trinities in a human being, we would never cease.

The Christian Trinity of Father, Son and Holy Spirit, means something a bit different to me, as a student of the Ageless Wisdom. But to say I don't believe in it, is like saying I don't believe there is a sky above, or an earth below. We can even agree that the sky is blue, but one man will take note of the phase of the moon, while another may point to a flock of geese. A third person can observe the prana floating in the air, and behold the gift of life itself.

This reminds me of one of my favorite Floyd songs, or the end of it, anyway:

Childhood's End (Gilmour)

You shout in your sleep.
Perhaps the price is just too steep.
Is your conscience at rest
If once put to the test?
You awake with a start
To just the beating of your heart.
Just one man beneath the sky,
Just two ears, just two eyes.

You set sail across the sea
Of long past thoughts and memories.
Childhood's end, your fantasies
Merge with harsh realities.
And then as the sail is hoist,
You find your eyes are growing moist.
All the fears never voiced
Say you have to make your final choice.

Who are you and who am I
To say we know the reason why?
Some are born; some men die
Beneath one infinite sky.
There'll be war, there'll be peace.
But everything one day will cease.
All the iron turned to rust;
All the proud men turned to dust.
And so all things, time will mend.
So this song will end.

I also think Agnideva cast some light on the Trinity a bit earlier, on the Hindu forum. It's over my head, some of it, but it complements what I believe - via the lens of Christianity - and reminds me that ... The Tao that can be named, is not the Eternal Tao. This has relevance to every religion, and I think it even applies to each Aspect of the Christian Trinity ... and of course, to the Absolute.

Namaskar,

taijasi

So will I sir, if this "challenge" continues here in the Christian forum.

v/r

Q

Quahom1 · 09-23-2006, 01:11 AM

Ok, thread open.

I remind all, what it is not, it is not a personal "instant messanger", nor is it a "door mat" to wipe boots on the majority belief housed here.

v/r

Quahom

BlaznFattyz · 09-23-2006, 11:13 PM

In the bible it states that god raised christ, the spirit raised christ, and christ had divine life within himself to raise himself. what is being said here in the context of the entire scripture is that what the the father does, the son does, and the spirit does--all in agreement.

pfw · 01-28-2007, 08:43 AM

The original quote is def from the Church Of Jesus Christ of Latter Day saints (or Mormons). and is in no way a common or orthadox interpritation of the trinity. (Mormonism is not a monotheistic religion as God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are 3 seperate entities, each worth of worship)The idea of the trinity came into existance with the Nicean Creed; it was an attempt by the theologians of the time to express the unknowable and unguessable nature of God to the human mind- if you like a deliberate paradox designed to give the 'common man' an idea of the mystery and wonder of God. It was never intended to be taken literally or to become a point of doctrine or dogma and nothing even remotly like it had appeared in Christianity before the Nicean Creed. (check out 'A history Of God' by Karen Armstrong- isbn 0099273675). It has no biblical or scriptural back up and is something that has been taken completely out of context and twisted into something it was never meant to be.

BlaznFattyz · 01-28-2007, 04:09 PM

before any creed, people experienced god as a trinity, some understood it, some didn't even realize it. moses experienced the trinity at the burning bush, people experienced the trinity when jesus was baptized, david experienced the trinity when he was filled with the holy spirit and said "my lord said to my lord", and the beginning of creation before man was even around the trinity created the universe, and there are more examples. i think you put too much emphasis on creeds as a platform to debase pre-existance of the trinity and knowledge of it, yet they do not define the trinity, they just help agree on a standard, if you will, that links churches together that believe in the same doctrine--god is father, son, and holy ghost.

Quahom1 · 01-29-2007, 02:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pfw

The original quote is def from the Church Of Jesus Christ of Latter Day saints (or Mormons). and is in no way a common or orthadox interpritation of the trinity. (Mormonism is not a monotheistic religion as God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are 3 seperate entities, each worth of worship)The idea of the trinity came into existance with the Nicean Creed; it was an attempt by the theologians of the time to express the unknowable and unguessable nature of God to the human mind- if you like a deliberate paradox designed to give the 'common man' an idea of the mystery and wonder of God. It was never intended to be taken literally or to become a point of doctrine or dogma and nothing even remotly like it had appeared in Christianity before the Nicean Creed. (check out 'A history Of God' by Karen Armstrong- isbn 0099273675). It has no biblical or scriptural back up and is something that has been taken completely out of context and twisted into something it was never meant to be.

The concept of the "Trinity" began in Genesis...unless one considers God as being Schizofrenic. No matter how one looks at it, God is talking to others, besides Himself...and I don't think by the "we" and "us" and "our", His verbage is describing angels, either.

That would put the "trinity" concept at about 5000 BC (E), not 400 AD (ACE).

v/r

Joshua

Thomas · 01-29-2007, 01:29 PM

The precise Doctrine of the Trinity (like that of the Incarnation), are considered as Revelation within the Catholic Tradition, and as such are not a priori accessible to reason or logic (in which case man would have come to the doctrine under his own steam, as it were).

There are many triunes in the world's spiritual and philosophical systems, but none match the Trinity so that they might be called an equivalant – the work of the great French metaphysician René Guénon, a Sufi and father of the Sophia Perennis as the philosophical foundation of Comparative Religion, was at pains to point out this fact – not so much to champion the uniqueness of Christian doctrine, but rather defend the proper understanding of Vedic principle.

These doctrines were the work of the Greek Fathers, inspired by the Holy Spirit, in reflection upon the data of Revelation carried and transmitted by Scripture – so whilst one can 'backtrack' and trace evidence for the Doctrine to the very beginning, it would be wrong to say that, for example, the Wisdom Literature of Judaism could or should have arrived at an understanding of the Trinity.

The great Christological debates of the 2 - 5th centuries trace the development of this doctrine, and the development of the Creed as its statement, culminating in the saying of Athenasius:
God became man, that man might become God."
("On The Incarnation" 54, 3: PG 25, 192B.)

Thomas

Zagreus · 01-29-2007, 02:40 PM

And what this boils down to, I think we should note ... is that the HUMAN mind, varying in its understanding according to the various *WORLD* religious systems, philosophies, and ideologies, has many ways of understanding God's Threefold Nature - call it what you will.

You say tomAYto, I say tomAHto.

But a rose, by any other name ...

And just as there is a threefold nature, so there is a Sevenfold nature, a Septenate. To pursue the Vedic teachings along this line, consider the Seven Rishis, and the Saptaparna (seven-leaved "man-plant"). Exoteric Buddhist teachings will acknowledge only five dhyani buddhas and dhyani bodhisattvas ... while the esoteric will state that there are seven.

Pythagoras, who knew well the Sophia Perennis, taught us all this with the Divine Tetraktys. And while this refers to four, one can clearly observe the parallels ... with a little observation, and the use of the Spiritual Intuition. Proclus tells us that "the Father of the golden verses [Pythagoras] celebrates the Tetraktys as the fountain of perennial nature" (On the Timaeus 3).

So the idea that the Trinity originated with Christianity ... we can say is *conditionally* true, just in that same way that Toyota invented the compact car. We can quibble, and we can say *certainly* that Toyota was the first auto maker to produce the Camry, or Honda the Accord. Did either of these invent the automobile? No. Nor did Christianity invent God's threefold nature. And to say that it was not known to the ancients - of remotest antiquity - is purely absurd.

The Catholics may consider their revelation unique and you may think that this stuff was not a priori accessible ... but then, you are also free to THINK that you invented oxygen. Even science, wondrous as are her discoveries, did not invent oxgen. And Democritus, for his supposedly elementary theories about matter - may well have known truths which the brightest scientists of today have not even fathomed!

What Christianity has done is to evolve a certain presentation of God's Threefold Nature ... which appeals to many, to be certain. It is a fine system, yes, but not the first. I believe Blazn's post, from yesterday, summarizes my points succinctly.

~Zag

Thomas · 01-29-2007, 03:17 PM

Hi Zag -

I am aware of your anti-Catholic sentiment, so I will not pursue this point too far, having said that however ...

Nor did Christianity invent God's threefold nature.
Which is not what I said.

The Trinity is not an invention, nor is it, in its Christian expression – common – in its metaphysic and its subsequent exegesis it is unique. At the superficial level there are many commonalities, but that's why I emphasised 'precise' in this context. The triunes of other systems do not correspond 'precisely' to the Christian, and therein lies the all-important difference.

At the philosophical level, such superficiality is not acceptrable.

And to say that it was not known to the ancients - of remotest antiquity - is purely absurd.
And nor did I say that.

Vedic, Buddhist, Greek and Egyptian triunes do not equate in precisely the same way to the Trinity ... and consequently do not hold the same ramification for the nature of 'person' and 'union' for example.

The Catholics may consider their revelation unique and you may think that this stuff was not a priori accessible ... but then, you are also free to THINK that you invented oxygen.
Your opinion of Catholicism is well known, but please try and refrain from ridicule in place of reasoned argument (or lack of).

What Christianity has done is to evolve a certain presentation of God's Threefold Nature ...
This would involve a deep conversation on the precise nature of revelation, intuition and inspiration. The Doctrine of the Trinity is revealed, it is not inspired, nor is it intuited, and as such it is a unique presentation of God's Threefold Nature.

All you have to do, to counter this arguement, is demonstrate the same doctrine 'precisely' in another tradition.

Thomas

Zagreus · 01-29-2007, 04:44 PM

It (God's Threefold Nature) is precisely revealed ... within Hinduism, as the Trimurti. You know this, of course.

In Egyptian religion, we have Osiris, Horus and Isis.

Buddhism recognizes the Trikaya, or Dharmakaya vestiture, Sambhog, and Nirmanakaya. Kaya simply means vehicle, or presentation. Even here, in this non-theistic religion, the same Wisdom is manifest.

The Kabbalah, too, though it has many trinities, proceeds from Kether, Binah and Hochmah.

The ancients knew of the same triune and septenary nature, of the same God as Christianity espouses ... for even the borrowing of the terms `chrestos' and `christos' comes from the Mystery Traditions of pre-Christian Greece.

And for the record, my sentiment is not "anti-Catholic;" it is PRO-Truth. It is the corruption, the power politics and the propaganda which I despise, whether it be within the Catholic Church, the US Government, a Communist regime (such as China, or Soviet Russia), or even such entities as the popular media, which feeds on negativity - and spews more out in return.

And yet, how is it ... that despite the corruption in power politics, religious organizations, and even the big, bad media - each of these nonetheless also manages to serve creatively (Holy Spirit), with genuine concern & Goodwill for our well-being & that of the planet (Christ, Love, the Son), in quite an EmPOWERing way (God the Father, Will, 1st Aspect) for those who are ready to receive the boost?

The Trinity of Christianity ... a unique, "precise" way to talk about God's Threefold Nature? Yeah. You got it, buddy. Is it the ONLY way? Nope. The best way? For YOU, maybe. And that's JUST you. Your Catholic buddies here - they'll come when you rattle your saber. I know all too well.

Christians, we see at CR, believe various things about the Trinity. Some say you guys cooked it up. Some say you just think you did. My own background certainly included the basic presentation, but even as the child of intellectuals I never had these eight and fifteen syllable words tossed about. What's the point?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas

All you have to do, to counter this arguement, is demonstrate the same doctrine 'precisely' in another tradition.

Well you see, that's like saying, I'll believe Toyota makes the Crown Victoria, if you can just show me a Ford with a Toyota emblem on it.

Err, no. You got me there. Can't do it. A Ford's a Ford, and a Toyota is a horse of a completely different color. I'm just the guy standing here, feeling stupid, trying to say ... Errr, aren't these just two different types of CARS?

Tell you what though. I drive a Honda. It ain't no Cadillac, it ain't no Rolls, and I don't even have power windows! I get good gas mileage, but I'm not planning to LIVE in my car (God willing). I just use it to get from point A to B. And when I get to the other side, I ain't strappin' this raft to my back.

~Zag

Thomas · 01-29-2007, 05:47 PM

It (God's Threefold Nature) is precisely revealed ... within Hinduism, as the Trimurti. You know this, of course.

Yes I do. The equivalent doctrine, 'of three aspects of the one God' was proposed by Sabellius in the 3rd century and was refuted. It is also known as Monarchianism, and famously by Tertullian as "Patripassianism", from the Latin words patris for "father", and passus for "to suffer" because it implied that if Father and Son were simply two aspects of the one God, then the Father suffered on the Cross (or the Son did not) – Tertullian said of Sabellius that "he put to flight the Paraclete, and he crucified the Father."
Tertullian, "Adversus Praxeas", Chapter II.

In Egyptian religion, we have Osiris, Horus and Isis.
Yes. Husband, wife and child - three gods, not one god in three persons. Isis and Horus were once husband and wife, until later redactions of the myth made Osiris and Isis husband and wife, and Horus became the son. Nothing like the Trinity.

Buddhism recognizes the Trikaya, or Dharmakaya vestiture, Sambhog, and Nirmanakaya. Kaya simply means vehicle, or presentation. Even here, in this non-theistic religion, the same Wisdom is manifest.

I utterly disagree. The wisdom on non-theism cannot present the wisdom of theism.

The Kabbalah ... the ancients knew of the same triune ...
Triunes, yes ... of course, number is universal ... but not Trinity.

for even the borrowing of the terms `chrestos' and `christos' comes from the Mystery Traditions of pre-Christian Greece.
Not quite. It was the word used in the Greek to translate the Hebrew... and 'chrestos' and 'christos' are not the same thing.

The Trinity of Christianity ... a unique, "precise" way to talk about God's Threefold Nature? Yeah. You got it, buddy.
Come come, don't get tetchy. As I said:
"All you have to do, to counter this arguement, is demonstrate the same doctrine 'precisely' in another tradition."

Err, no. You got me there. Can't do it.

That was my point.

Thomas

kenod · 01-30-2007, 05:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quahom1

The concept of the "Trinity" began in Genesis...unless one considers God as being Schizofrenic. No matter how one looks at it, God is talking to others, besides Himself...and I don't think by the "we" and "us" and "our", His verbage is describing angels, either.
That would put the "trinity" concept at about 5000 BC (E), not 400 AD (ACE).
v/r
Joshua

And the Jews missed the "we", "us" and "our"?

kenod · 01-30-2007, 05:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas

The great Christological debates of the 2 - 5th centuries trace the development of this doctrine

That's exactly what worries me! Was the Church growing in spiritual understanding, or was the Truth gradually disappearing from the organised church? Later historical developments give me no confidence that the political church was on the path of greater understanding.