The Trinity of Christianity

[Thomas]

The Trinity is only 'logical' (or otherwise) when one is outside, looking in.

In the same way 'love' is only logical (or otherwise), if one has never been in love.

When in love, or in the Trinity (which in essence is the same thing) one transcends logic.

Love needs a Subject (the one who loves) and an Object (that which is loved) and a medium of relation (love itself).

Simply put, Trinitarian Christianity holds that it is a mistake to assume that God did not love until He made something to love ... God did not make the world, and make 'love' to go along with it, nor make the world and suddenly realised that He never knew He could love, until He made it.

Trinitarians hold that God is Love, that the Subject loved before there was anything to love, therefore the nature of the subject is Love itself ... but here's a problem, how can love be a Divine Quality and not be? For if God is Love potentially, but not actively, then God is not perfect, in that He is not all that He can possibly be, then we must ask what prevents God from being all that He can be ... A thing cannot be all that it is and not be all that it is simultaneously (the First Proof of St Thomas Aquinas, following Aristotle) ... so as God is, love is ... and that love is God himself, whom was made known to us in the Incarnation of the Son, the knowing of God of Himself "All things are delivered to me of my Father" (Luke 10:22) and the Spirit is the Life of the Son in the Father, which is of the Son but not the Son, but everything the Son is; and the Spirit is the Life of the Father in the Son, which is of the Father but not the Father, but everything the Father is ... so the Spirit is not the Father and nor the Son, but is everything that the Father and the Son is...

And thus Father and Son and Spirit are Three, (subject, object, and relation) and One (activity), from all eternally ...

"Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works." (John 14:10)

Love is the medium that holds everything together (the law of attraction, which itself cannot be explained) ... when you are in love, you are in the medium, your being is suffused with it, the whole world is sparkles with it, in fact when you fall in love, the world is made anew ... and when in the Trinity, you are in the Source, you are with the Maker, witness to that eternal act of Creation.

But when we are in ourselves, love becomes mere utility.

Sorry, in lyricial mode again...

Thomas

[soma]

I also think the Christian symbol of the Trinity is used to bring us above reason to a nonlinear experience. It serves as an exit point from the physical world of parts to the interrelated multidimensional world of consciousness. It is not possible to govern at the same time all the diverse systems of the universe with only one component so Christians show God as a Trinity. God is represented as the Father, the Creator and the all-pervading consciousness from which everything comes forth. He is revealed in human life by the Son, the individual consciousness and is forever at work in nature through the Holy Ghost.

A chord of love.........3 different notes making one sound........love

[Thomas]

It is not possible to govern at the same time all the diverse systems of the universe with only one component so Christians show God as a Trinity.

We need to be careful here that we're not determining what God can and cannot do, nor that Christianity is 'inventing' a trinity, as it were, to explain something it anbnot make comprehensible otherwise - neither is the case.

God is represented as the Father, the Creator and the all-pervading consciousness from which everything comes forth. He is revealed in human life by the Son, the individual consciousness and is forever at work in nature through the Holy Ghost.

It's one representation but it's not quite how Christian theology sees it.

The risk is always in expressing the Trinity as primarily cosmological functions – the Trinity is above cosmology, and this is one of the things that sets it apart from all other triune godheads, which invariably express a cosmological principle.

Thomas

[soma]

God and the Trinity are beyond the mind so rationally we can only point to it and try to describe it. I think our descriptions of the Trinity are for our minds to answer questions so they will relax and let us have a spiritual experience.

In a composition we can say that the Father is the subject matter, the Holy Ghost is the action and the Son is the intent. The masterpiece is the unity of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost. This is the Holy Trinity, and upon deep inquiry, we see The Holy Trinity trying to make sense of non-duality. This is a logical problem because the mind in time and space only knows duality, but when we say God is everything, we are saying God is one.

[Thomas]

Hi Soma -

I'm not trying to nit-pick, by the way, but respond only because your argument could be construed to imply the Trinity is an abstract, an intellectual construct on the part of man, which is not the case.

God and the Trinity are beyond the mind so rationally we can only point to it and try to describe it.

But the Trinity is not beyond faith – we can know in the Trinity. The Trinity Itself is a disclosure made known through faith, not through the reasoning faculty.

This is the Holy Trinity, and upon deep inquiry, we see The Holy Trinity trying to make sense of non-duality.

Again, you seem to be pointing to man when you should be pointing at the Trinity, and at the Trinity when you should be pointing at man! The Trinity makes sense of duality indeed, but that is not the reason for the Trinity - any more than the sun is a necessity to explain the phenomena of light.

Christianity rejects monism and dualism - so in that sense a trinity is the only 'logical' resolution, but the trinity of human logic is a thin and pale shadow of the Trinity of Divine Revelation.

There are many structures we can liken it to - St Augustine spoke of the mind under the aspect of 'memory - intellect - will' as being trinitarian, or even an anthropology of 'body-soul-spirit' - but these are because of the Trinity, not the cause of the Trinity.

Thomas

[soma]

From Unity comes Duality, God created everything so everything came from God and since there is only one God then there is unity in God. From Duality comes Trinity, living in duality we want to know God and his unity, but can't express it so we have the Trinity as a symbol to try to understand what is beyond the mind. From Trinity comes Infinity, we can't understand God, the infinite but we can come closer to God and infinity with the help of the Trinity. As Christians we see God revealing the blessings through His Son and through the Holy Spirit, through whom God made the world, through whom God revealed Himself in the Old Testament, through whom God enlightens and makes alive every man in the world .The Son comes as a man in the person of Jesus Christ. The Spirit comes to individuals to to guide them to the beyond.

If God is always and everywhere then God the Father, is one, unity , the Son of God who comes as Jesus, and the Holy Spirit come to us in our dualistic minds to show us unity beyond the mind. The Orthodox Church says that these three are not three competitive gods, divided, and separated from each other, but one God. They are acting in the perfectly absolute unity of the divine truth and love. Thus the Three are one not only because what they are is one and the same, but because their divine union allows of no separation or duality or division whatsoever.

The Trinity is a symbol on the level of words, which are always inadequate to reality. They can't express experience of God in the Church. The doctrine of the Trinity is the product of man in duality living in communion (unity) with the Father, which is one through the Son and the Holy Spirit, which guide us to the Father. I change the vocabulary from stict Christian text to try to explain it rationally in modern terms in my mind which is in duality.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by soma

From Unity comes Duality, God created everything so everything came from God and since there is only one God then there is unity in God. From Duality comes Trinity, living in duality we want to know God and his unity, but can't express it so we have the Trinity as a symbol to try to understand what is beyond the mind. From Trinity comes Infinity, we can't understand God, the infinite but we can come closer to God and infinity with the help of the Trinity. As Christians we see God revealing the blessings through His Son and through the Holy Spirit, through whom God made the world, through whom God revealed Himself in the Old Testament, through whom God enlightens and makes alive every man in the world .The Son comes as a man in the person of Jesus Christ. The Spirit comes to individuals to to guide them to the beyond.

If God is always and everywhere then God the Father, is one, unity , the Son of God who comes as Jesus, and the Holy Spirit come to us in our dualistic minds to show us unity beyond the mind. The Orthodox Church says that these three are not three competitive gods, divided, and separated from each other, but one God. They are acting in the perfectly absolute unity of the divine truth and love. Thus the Three are one not only because what they are is one and the same, but because their divine union allows of no separation or duality or division whatsoever.

The Trinity is a symbol on the level of words, which are always inadequate to reality. They can't express experience of God in the Church. The doctrine of the Trinity is the product of man in duality living in communion (unity) with the Father, which is one through the Son and the Holy Spirit, which guide us to the Father. I change the vocabulary from stict Christian text to try to explain it rationally in modern terms in my mind which is in duality.

Last time I checked, from One comes One. Trinity is One or 3/3 which equals One. Simple math actually. I find it ironic that those that don't believe find it extremely important to try and convince those that do believe that they are so damn wrong (goes both ways by the bye). For those that believe, no explaination is required. For those that refuse to believe, no explaination is possible...

We have gone over this so many times. Yet again another understands better than we about our own faith...so be it. Have fun.

v/r

Q

yes, I am a little miffed, so please excuse my sarcasm, it is in general, not personally focussed.

[soma]

We are expanding on the Trinity to expand our minds not make converts or unbelievers. I like to reduce everything to one, but I have 10 fingers in this world of duality so it is a little more difficult to reduce them to one finger, but one body works.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by soma

We are expanding on the Trinity to expand our minds not make converts or unbelievers. I like to reduce everything to one, but I have 10 fingers in this world of duality so it is a little more difficult to reduce them to one finger, but one body works.

Ah but you do have one "set" of fingers, and one "set" of toes, and one "set" of limbs...

So, the argument can be made that there is one "set" of God (consisting of three personages...

v/r

Q

well it made sense to me as I was writing it...

[wil]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

well it made sense to me as I was writing it...

Glad you said that becuase the whole 3/3 thing meant each was one third something which seems to me they are all of something, an eachness of the allness...

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by wil

Glad you said that becuase the whole 3/3 thing meant each was one third something which seems to me they are all of something, an eachness of the allness...

You know...I understood that (don't ask me how or why), but it made sense.

v/r

Q

[Dor]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

For those that believe, no explaination is required. For those that refuse to believe, no explaination is possible...

Thanks Q! To often belief and faith is not enough anymore seems most people want proof now.

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by Dor

Thanks Q! To often belief and faith is not enough anymore seems most people want proof now.

This is one of the miracles of love: It gives a power of seeing through its own enchantments and yet not being disenchanted.
C. S. Lewis

[Thomas]

Thank you Q - and Seattlegirl - I have to admit I have become disenchanted with CR of late.

I wanted to say to Soma - I reread some of your posts and wanted to correct what appears to be a somewhat overbearing response (my failing, it would appear):

I also think the Christian symbol of the Trinity is used to bring us above reason to a nonlinear experience.

There is something quite profound in this, and my own expression of non-linear is in continuum, and in the spirit of friendship I offer my own thoughts ...

"Into thy hands I commend my spirit"

... the doctrine of the Trinity is the Revelation that offers an answer the dilemma of the world and the tragedy of the human condition - and of individual being - it unites Absolute Transcendence and Absolute Immanence without sacrificing either - it allows both succession (time/space) and simultaneity (being) - in a world that is in each moment fallen, and yet recovered, not just individually, but collectively ... it is the only doctrine I know that accounts for the real Union of spirit and matter - of the longing for God, in human history, and of His unfolding, in a Salvation History that must necesarily embrace all people collectively and not just individually (what man would see himself saved and his neighbour lost?).

What the Spirit will unfold before us in time and space, is already here in us because we are in Him.

"Into thy hands I commend my spirit"

In Him we live and move and have our being ... God sees us all, uniquely and individually as manifesting his Glory, a Glory that is ours when we are hid in Him...

"Into thy hands I commend my spirit"

The great mystery of the Cross is that when Jesus ascended, and showed Himself to the Father, He still bore the wounds of the cross, as every iconic image of Christian art testifies.

In the offering up of his humanity upon the cross ("why hast thou forsaken me?" Matt 27:46, Mark 15:34 & Psalms 22:1) to the Father ("into thy hands I commend my spirit" Luke 23:46) is a total act of faith.

In the Father's acceptance of the Son to His throne is the Father's acceptance of a fallen humanity which, in His infinity Mercy, is made One in the Eternal Moment of His Being, as St Paul saw with such awesome clarity "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.(1 Corinthians 15:52)

This change is made in us in our baptism, when the Fathers says of his each and every creation, "This is my beloved Son (or Daughter)..." as is told in the Synoptics ... a being willed in the Father, formed in the Son and Revealed in the Holy Spirit ... not so much an unfolding but an enfolding...

"Into thy hands I commend my spirit"

... and made known to us also, in the fullness of time.

I spoke of the Icons of Christ showing his Wounds to the Father ... to us in the Icons he shows his Heart, a Revelation his very Being and the limitlessness of his Love ("He who has seen me has seen the Father" John 14:9) ... and by His example asks nothing less, that we open our hearts, reveal ourselves, in faith, in hope and in love, to Him.

"Into thy hands I commend my spirit" -
would that we could say it,
and mean it,
and hold to it,
with every fibre of our being.

Alone in Him there is nought other, 'not me nor Thee' as Eckhart might have said, yet, as St Paul tells us "then shall I know even as also I am known." (1 Corinthians 13:12) - for man is not effaced in God, but made one with Him, in the Unity of the Holy Spirit...

Mystery of Mysteries!

Listen to St Peter:
"Knowing that shortly I must put off [this] my tabernacle, even as our Lord Jesus Christ hath shewed me. Moreover I will endeavour that ye may be able after my decease to have these things always in remembrance. For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount. We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake [as they were] moved by the Holy Ghost."
2 Peter 1:14-21

Thomas

[kenod]

While I acknowledge that God is beyond reasoning, I do not believe that He is contrary to reasoning. To accept the Trinity explanation, it seems you have to sacrifice rational thought, which comes from God. The most simple explanation is often the most accurate. God is one, and He reveals Himself in three different ways. It seems such a sensible concept to me and yet I am repeatedly labelled a heretic ... glad I didn't live a few hundred years ago ... can't stand the heat!
Ken