The Trinity of Christianity

[kenod]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Now, to you think we are on the same page?

Your post #36 includes this comment:
Jesus what actually was sent, is called the creator in the New Testament: Jn 1:3; Col 1:16; Heb 1:10-12.

Your post #45 includes:
I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

So the Lord Jesus Christ and the Father are the same person … OK I agree with that!

You will have to explain “begotten before all worlds” to me though, and how it fits with “this day have I begotten thee” (Ps 2:7).

[Jamarz]

Originally Posted by Thomas

I also think the Christian symbol of the Trinity is used to bring us above reason to a nonlinear experience.

... the doctrine of the Trinity is the Revelation that offers an answer the dilemma of the world and the tragedy of the human condition - and of individual being - it unites Absolute Transcendence and Absolute Immanence without sacrificing either - it allows both succession (time/space) and simultaneity (being) - in a world that is in each moment fallen, and yet recovered, not just individually, but collectively ... it is the only doctrine I know that accounts for the real Union of spirit and matter - of the longing for God, in human history, and of His unfolding, in a Salvation History that must necesarily embrace all people collectively and not just individually (what man would see himself saved and his neighbour lost?).

What the Spirit will unfold before us in time and space, is already here in us because we are in Him.

"Into thy hands I commend my spirit"

In Him we live and move and have our being ... God sees us all, uniquely and individually as manifesting his Glory, a Glory that is ours when we are hid in Him...

"Into thy hands I commend my spirit"

The great mystery of the Cross is that when Jesus ascended, and showed Himself to the Father, He still bore the wounds of the cross, as every iconic image of Christian art testifies.

In the offering up of his humanity upon the cross ("why hast thou forsaken me?" Matt 27:46, Mark 15:34 & Psalms 22:1) to the Father ("into thy hands I commend my spirit" Luke 23:46) is a total act of faith.

In the Father's acceptance of the Son to His throne is the Father's acceptance of a fallen humanity which, in His infinity Mercy, is made One in the Eternal Moment of His Being, as St Paul saw with such awesome clarity "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.(1 Corinthians 15:52)
Thomas

Thomas, this so moved me to tears of praise and joy. I am a Trinitarian to the core of my soul and beyond. The God, who exists outside of time and space, sent the Christ into our human condition to reveal the Father's love and then to die for that love on the cross, rise from the chains of death to show us the Way by the power of the Holy Spirit. What more can this be but the agape love of the Divine?


Here is one of my favorite explanations of the Trinity: When St. Patrick began his mission to bring the Gospel to Ireland, the Irish had great difficulty comprehending the doctrine of the Trinity. So St. Patrick held up a shamrock (similar to a three-leaf clover) to show how the three leaves combined to make a single plant, just as the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit combined to make the holy Trinity. The Irish understood at once, and from that time, the shamrock has been the symbol of the land.

So simple, so sweet; but, humanity always wants to muck up the beauty of simplicity.

“Erin Go Bragh”

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by kenod

Your post #36 includes this comment:
Jesus what actually was sent, is called the creator in the New Testament: Jn 1:3; Col 1:16; Heb 1:10-12.

Your post #45 includes:
I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

So the Lord Jesus Christ and the Father are the same person … OK I agree with that!

You will have to explain “begotten before all worlds” to me though, and how it fits with “this day have I begotten thee” (Ps 2:7).

Well, let's see. John 1 is pretty specific. Then there is Genesis 1: 26-28 to back up the fact that God is talking about "more than one". Who, is He talking about? And, what does "begotten" mean? Word (Logos) made "flesh"

In the beginning was the "Word".

Now as for Psalm 2: 7 , well first we must start at Psalm 1:

Psalm 1


1Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.
2But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.
3And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper.
4The ungodly are not so: but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away.
5Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous. 6For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.

Then we move into Psalm 2:

Psalm 2


1Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?
2The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying,
3Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.
4He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the LORD shall have them in derision.
5Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.
6Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
7I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
8Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
9Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.
10Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.
11Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling. 12Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.

Quite simple my friend. The Father is describing the distant future, and all futures, wherein man thinks he is greater than God. It is another duel message. What happened then, happens now. Surely you can see the same garbage being pronounced now as at the time this set of passages were written? Man NEVER learns, but for a few, while the rest of the world keeps on keeping on...the hard way.

v/r

Q

[kenod]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Well, let's see. John 1 is pretty specific. Then there is Genesis 1: 26-28 to back up the fact that God is talking about "more than one".
Q

The Jews don’t see more than one in Genesis 1:26-28, nor do Oneness believers … actually, not even all Trinitarians believe that “us” means the three persons of the Trinity, do they?

There are only four verses in the Bible where a plural pronoun is used by God (Gen 1:26; 3:22; 11:7; and Isaiah 6:8). The last reference, along with 1 Kings 22:19-20, seems to be the best explanation in my opinion. Otherwise, we have to take the approach: “I believe in the Trinity, so “us” must mean the Trinity”.

I’m not sure you addressed the question of “when” the Son was begotten. I can’t see an eternally-begotten Son in the Bible. And what does “begotten” mean in the Trinitarian interpretation? These are matters that are answered so simply by the Oneness understanding.

Only John uses the expression “Word”. Since he says the Word is “in the bosom of the Father”, it seems important to me that we understand what that means.

I think it is also relevant to consider the context John was drawing on - most likely the OT where “the Word” is represented as a manifestation of God, an extension of His being, not as a separate person (Ps 107:20; Is 55:11).

The Bible says the Word was made flesh, not that the second person of the Trinity was made flesh. God spoke the Word, the Word was manifested in the physical form of Jesus Christ, and that Word became His tabernacle.

BTW, I read somewhere that the story of Patrick and the three leaved clover/shamrock can’t be traced back any earlier than the 16th century. Do you know if that’s true?

[Dor]

Ok I need some clarification here.

Kenod are you saying that (forgive me if Im way off but this is how it seemed to me)....

God was the Father during OT times and then
God was Jesus during that time and
God is now the holy spirit??

[Quahom1]

[quote=kenod]

The Jews don’t see more than one in Genesis 1:26-28, nor do Oneness believers … actually, not even all Trinitarians believe that “us” means the three persons of the Trinity, do they?

Well, I won't answer for the Jews. Perhaps Bannana Brain or Dauer could give you an accurate answer. As for Trinitarians, I can only speak for those that think like me, which is, "three personages, in one God". I find that easy to understand like I understand I am composed of "three parts" that make up the whole of "me". There is my body (that the world sees and reacts to), there is my mind (that gets me through this life on a day to day basis, that some get to see and react to), and there is my Spirit (my essence that no one really knows but closest of kin and God...the mysterious part of me that can't be quite described, but we know it is there and has an important role-paramount actually). Again, it makes sense to me, but I do not push that on anyone else.

There are only four verses in the Bible where a plural pronoun is used by God (Gen 1:26; 3:22; 11:7; and Isaiah 6:8). The last reference, along with 1 Kings 22:19-20, seems to be the best explanation in my opinion. Otherwise, we have to take the approach: “I believe in the Trinity, so “us” must mean the Trinity”.

The fact that there are "any" verses defining God in the plural, should give everyone a heads up! What does this mean?!!!...

I’m not sure you addressed the question of “when” the Son was begotten. I can’t see an eternally-begotten Son in the Bible. And what does “begotten” mean in the Trinitarian interpretation? These are matters that are answered so simply by the Oneness understanding.

"In the beginning...was the Word" (Logos). John 1 does not state "in the beginning there was God the Father, and then came the Word." Furthermore, Jesus is specifically addressed again as "The Word of God" in Revelation

Word (John 1:1,14)
Word of God (Rev. 19:13)

The Word, means that which begins. It is an outward expression of reality. As long as something is still in the imagination or mind, it doesn't exist in reality (as we know it). But once an action occurs outside the mind or imagination, that which was simply a thought begins to take on shape and form, in our perceived reality. Hence God opened His mouth and spoke. And the Word brought forth our existence...literally. Obviously not immediately as Genesis is want to instruct us. But eventually, we came into being, because the Word issued forth the beginning of our lives.

Jesus Himself identified Himself as the Alpha and Omega "The beginning and the end".

Begotten means just that, comes from the Father, or in other words:



The Athanasian creed gives a summary of the early Church's (and my personal conviction), teaching on the Trinity :

We worship one God in Trinity and Trinity in Unity, neither confounding the Persons nor dividing the substance. For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Ghost; but the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is all one, the glory equal, the majesty co-eternal. The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten; the Son is of the Father alone, not made, nor created, but begotten;(in existence with and by). The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son, neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.

I think it is also relevant to consider the context John was drawing on - most likely the OT where “the Word” is represented as a manifestation of God, an extension of His being, not as a separate person (Ps 107:20; Is 55:11).

You asked for my thoughts on the trinity concept, which I have made quite clear as noted above.

The Bible says the Word was made flesh, not that the second person of the Trinity was made flesh. God spoke the Word, the Word was manifested in the physical form of Jesus Christ, and that Word became His tabernacle.

If Jesus is "The Word", and He is the second person of the Trinity, then the Word was made flesh, and Jesus fits the bill. There is no "other" second person of the Trinity that can take that position. As stated before, The Holy Spirit is not made, nor begotten, but "proceeding".

BTW, I read somewhere that the story of Patrick and the three leaved clover/shamrock can’t be traced back any earlier than the 16th century. Do you know if that’s true?

Who knows? Celtic history is shrouded in mystery. Patrick did many amazing things that are documented. His influence did cause the Irish monks to literally save much of the literature before the fall of of Rome and the destruction of the Library of Alexander. For 150 or so year the Irish kept civilization and society rules (as we know them today), alive. It could be true, or it could have been the lessons of an intuitive parent who wished to teach a child about a holy man and his God, and saw opportunity, in the three leaves of a "simple" clover...

my thoughts

v/r

Q

[kenod]

Originally Posted by Dor

Ok I need some clarification here.

Kenod are you saying that (forgive me if Im way off but this is how it seemed to me)....

God was the Father during OT times and then
God was Jesus during that time and
God is now the holy spirit??

From my understanding of the Scriptures, I see that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are all manifestations of the one God - one Person, if you like.

He has all of those attributes all of the time: He is our loving heavenly Father, and the the Redeemer who paid the price for our sins, and the Holy Spirit who teaches and guides us.

At different points in time, one or other of those attributes has been more prominent in the way He has revealed Himself to us. In the OT He was revealing Himself as the Father; then He revealed Himself through His Son, Jesus Christ; and now we know Him through the power of His spirit. Soon we will know Him as our King!

The analogy is imperfect, but I do not stop being a father when I am acting in the capacity of a son or husband.

[kenod]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

The fact that there are "any" verses defining God in the plural, should give everyone a heads up! What does this mean?!!!...

Just today I had the opportunity to look at an interesting book (not mine unfortunately) by Bruce K. Waltke, a professor of Old Testament Studies, and author of several books, including a text on Biblical Hebrew syntax. The book I was looking at was called “Genesis: A Commentary” and I copied out this sentence in reference to the plural pronouns in Genesis”

“The explanation that best satisfies all such uses of the pronoun is that God is addressing the angels or heavenly court (cf 1 Kings 22:19-22; Job 1:6; 2:1; 38:7; Ps 29:1-3; 89:5-6, Isaiah 6:8; 40:1-6; Daniel 10:12-13; Luke 2:8-14)”

Likewise, the word Elohim is often said to be a plural noun. It is a bit like our word “sheep” - it can be plural and it can also be singular. In the case of Elohim, the singular verb shows that it does not have a plural meaning when applied to Jehovah God. When the plural verb is used it means “gods”. You know whether I mean one, or more than one, when I say “the sheep is ..” or ‘the sheep are …”.


There are many Trinitarian Bible scholars now who acknowledge that no plural meanings for God can be identified in the OT.

The Word, means that which begins. It is an outward expression of reality. As long as something is still in the imagination or mind, it doesn't exist in reality (as we know it). But once an action occurs outside the mind or imagination, that which was simply a thought begins to take on shape and form, in our perceived reality. Hence God opened His mouth and spoke. And the Word brought forth our existence...literally. Obviously not immediately as Genesis is want to instruct us. But eventually, we came into being, because the Word issued forth the beginning of our lives.

I agree with what you are saying here. The Word was “with” God, that is, in God’s mind. God spoke the word which created the body of Jesus Christ: God’s word was made flesh. Hence Jesus is called “the Word”.

I cannot see an “eternally begotten Son” - I believe the Son had a beginning, but in Him dwelt the one eternal God.

Hebrews 1:5
For unto which of the angels said he at any time,
Thou art my Son,
this day have I begotten thee?
And again, I will be to him a Father,
and he shall be to me a Son?

Luke 1:35
And the angel answered and said unto her,
The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee,
and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee:
therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee
shall be called the Son of God.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world,
that he gave his only begotten Son,
that whosoever believeth in him
should not perish, but have everlasting life.

[Dor]

Originally Posted by kenod

The analogy is imperfect, but I do not stop being a father when I am acting in the capacity of a son or husband.

That sounds good for the Trinity right there....the father, son, husband does not stop existing cause you are doing the other....Just like Jesus prayed to the Father...the Father did not cease to exist cause Jesus was here and Jesus and the Father did not cease to exist cause the Holy Spirit is with us, they are all one.

Yes our King will be here in the future but we all know him.

[Dor]

Originally Posted by kenod

I cannot see an “eternally begotten Son” - I believe the Son had a beginning, but in Him dwelt the one eternal God.

How do you explain how he was there before creation if he is a created being.

Psalms 33:6 By the word of the Lord the heavens were made, And all the host of them by the breath of His mouth.

Hebrews 1:2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;

John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

Hebrews 1:10 And: "You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
There are many more but Ive found more you list the less people see .

[kenod]

Originally Posted by Dor

That sounds good for the Trinity right there....the father, son, husband does not stop existing cause you are doing the other....Just like Jesus prayed to the Father...the Father did not cease to exist cause Jesus was here and Jesus and the Father did not cease to exist cause the Holy Spirit is with us, they are all one.

Yes our King will be here in the future but we all know him.

I am not suggesting that any of the roles or offices of God “cease to exist”. Rather, I believe that God has revealed Himself more prominently in one form or another at specific times in history.

God has many attributes. For example, He has always been a Redeemer - it is a part of His nature. It was beautifully revealed and foreshadowed in the story of Ruth and her kinsman-redeemer. But there was a specific time in history when that role was manifested on earth. The Father was dwelling in Jesus Christ but the disciples knew Him in the physical form of the Son.

The Son is not a separate person - the Son is God the Father dwelling in human flesh.

The body of Jesus Christ is not here with us today, but we can know God through the ministry of His Spirit … the Holy Spirit it is not another person, it is the same Spirit that dwelt in Christ Himself.

Romans 8:9
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Romans 8:11
But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

When Jesus comes again we will know Him in His resurrected, glorified body.

[kenod]

Originally Posted by Dor

How do you explain how he was there before creation if he is a created being.

The flesh body of Jesus was a created being.

The Being that dwelt in that body, in all His fullness, was Jehovah, the one eternal God.

John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

Rev 13:8
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him,
whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb
slain from the foundation of the world.

Eph 1:4
According as he hath chosen us in him
before the foundation of the world,
that we should be holy and without blame
before him in love:

Before there was a world, God had planned the redemption of humankind. It was only after the resurrection, that Jesus could be glorified, and sit on the right hand of God. Of course, that is not a physical position, that means having the full power and glory of God almighty.

Mark 16:19
So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.

[Jamarz]

“And Jesus said unto them, "And whom do you say that I am?" They replied, "You are the eschatological manifestation of the ground of our being, the ontological foundation of the context of our very selfhood revealed." And Jesus replied, "What?"
Quodlibet, the online journal of Christian Theology and Philosophy

This is how I am thinking right now after reading thru this discussion:
Say What?

Are we splitting hairs? I don't understand what is the difference between Oneness and Trinitarians and does it really matter?

To me:

God is One.
God is Three.
God is a Diversity.
God is an Unity.

Three in Oneness because God is the Father, Son, and Spirit, He is One. The three persons together comprise the One God throughout Eternity.

The Father generates.
The Son is generated.
The Spirit proceeds.

The Father is the Originator.
The Son is the Revealer.
The Spirit is the Completer.

The Father acts,
through the Son,
by the agency of the Spirit.

The above ^^^ is what I have been taught regarding the Trinity and I always pray in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit or In the name of The Creator, Redeemer and Comforter.

The below article is an interesting read.

http://www.quodlibet.net/thron-physics.shtml
Chris Thon, Biblical Faith and the Mindset of the Physicist

[Abogado del Diablo]

Originally Posted by Jamarz

Are we splitting hairs?

Did you mean splitting heirs?

[Jamarz]

Originally Posted by Abogado del Diablo

Did you mean splitting heirs?

^^^^^
Now that one had me falling off my chair, rolling on the floor, laughing out loud. "Slain in the Spirit" and a "Holy Roller" all manifested in one human body.