The Truth - Are Karma and Reincarnation REAL?

[Hermes]

This is one of the most interesting and disturbing dilemmas I have had to face. All my esoteric training I was lead to believe that karma and reincarnation are the cornerstone of our cosmic laws and they are immutable in their impact and severity. Now, after studying further and getting a little deeper into the mysteries I am questioning the universal and ultimate state of these truths. First, I was also taught, from the start the esoteric truth is that our beliefs and ideas guide the ultimate, subjective reality we'd face. So if, any and all truth are just the subjective realities of our illusion then, time and space are only the subjective illusion, we collectively fabricated in the material realm. No matter how one thinks, the collective mind, humanities' group consciousness will ultimately influence his perception. In the higher realms, time and space does not exist, we know this from empirical evidence of those who have visited these realms and reported the strangeness of their experience. In infinity, there is no time and space. Hence, reincarnation is the illusion, that in tandem with the illusion of death, had been placed into our thinking to emphasize the sequential nature of our mundane existence. Also karma, as the Law of cause and effect is also an illusion. These illusions are all too real, but ultimately they have little impact on how things really are. It is all in your head, as the saying goes. The good news is death is also an illusion and your spirit is an immortal, everlasting light that naturally lacks imperfection and flaws.So fear based morality is not needed, it is OK to accept and try to adhere to this(karma) but negative, limiting thoughts based on karma are to be eliminated.
From the perspective of magic - it is all an illusion, hence anything is possible.

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by Hermes

This is one of the most interesting and disturbing dilemmas I have had to face. All my esoteric training I was lead to believe that karma and reincarnation are the cornerstone of our cosmic laws and they are immutable in their impact and severity. Now, after studying further and getting a little deeper into the mysteries I am questioning the universal and ultimate state of these truths. First, I was also taught, from the start the esoteric truth is that our beliefs and ideas guide the ultimate, subjective reality we'd face. So if, any and all truth are just the subjective realities of our illusion then, time and space are only the subjective illusion, we collectively fabricated in the material realm. No matter how one thinks, the collective mind, humanities' group consciousness will ultimately influence his perception. In the higher realms, time and space does not exist, we know this from empirical evidence of those who have visited these realms and reported the strangeness of their experience. In infinity, there is no time and space. Hence, reincarnation is the illusion, that in tandem with the illusion of death, had been placed into our thinking to emphasize the sequential nature of our mundane existence. Also karma, as the Law of cause and effect is also an illusion. These illusions are all too real, but ultimately they have little impact on how things really are. It is all in your head, as the saying goes. The good news is death is also an illusion and your spirit is an immortal, everlasting light that naturally lacks imperfection and flaws.So fear based morality is not needed, it is OK to accept and try to adhere to this(karma) but negative, limiting thoughts based on karma are to be eliminated.
From the perspective of magic - it is all an illusion, hence anything is possible.

Karma as intention will affect your subjective mind. (How's that for illusion? )

[Hermes]

It is "real" as long as you accept perception based reality as REAL. I am saying that it is to be taken with a "grain of salt" and not be placed into the shelf for the things reserved as ULTIMATE REALITY and LAW.
Those things are far and few...like GOD= infinity and we are all ONE. All else is a dream within the dream....
Having said this, I am not advocating the denial of karma or acts of unethical deeds, thinking that the karmic rebound will not hit. It will, because karma is our perception based concept, even in Christianity and even atheists are prone to say "what goes around, comes around". We are all in the Matrix and we must play by the rules, but certain personal limitations and limiting beliefs based on karma only work as long as you subscribe to them, and you are released as soon as you realize that you are, in fact in a dream.

Originally Posted by seattlegal

Karma as intention will affect your subjective mind. (How's that for illusion? )

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by Hermes

It is "real" as long as you accept perception based reality as REAL. I am saying that it is to be taken with a "grain of salt" and not be placed into the shelf for the things reserved as ULTIMATE REALITY and LAW.
Those things are far and few...like GOD= infinity and we are all ONE. All else is a dream within the dream....
Having said this, I am not advocating the denial of karma or acts of unethical deeds, thinking that the karmic rebound will not hit. It will, because karma is our perception based concept, even in Christianity and even atheists are prone to say "what goes around, comes around". We are all in the Matrix and we must play by the rules, but certain personal limitations and limiting beliefs based on karma only work as long as you subscribe to them, and you are released as soon as you realize that you are, in fact in a dream.

Even lucid dreaming will affect your mind.

[Nick the Pilot]

Hermes,

You need to define 'real'. Is anything in this universe real? No. Even gravity is an illusion.

Do karma and reincarnation 'happen' within this universe just as much as gravity 'happens'? Yes.

[Hermes]

Now we are talking. Nick, gravity is more "real" than reincarnation, IMHO. It is observable as one of the "laws" of physics. It is not based on our belief system as most esoteric concepts are. You cannot change your mind about gravity and expect to fly albeit some people came very close, allegedly...
Most unmeasurable, metaphysical concepts are true as far as we place strong beliefs in them, that is what gives them life and power.

Originally Posted by Nick the Pilot

Hermes,


You need to define 'real'. Is anything in this universe real? No. Even gravity is an illusion.

Do karma and reincarnation 'happen' within this universe just as much as gravity 'happens'? Yes.

[radarmark]

Depends on what you mean by "gravity". Do you mean Newtonian or Einsteinian or post-Einsteinian? The choice does matter.

Karma is just another formulation of the law of cause and effect. Which (by the way) very much influences the notion of "gravity" (is it a cause or effect? is gravity a response of the entire universe to some action or merely the impact of some pre-defined, or definable, basis of it?). These are important questions.

[Hermes]

Does it happen because it is the immutable law or because you believe it happens?

Originally Posted by Nick the Pilot

Hermes,

You need to define 'real'. Is anything in this universe real? No. Even gravity is an illusion.

Do karma and reincarnation 'happen' within this universe just as much as gravity 'happens'? Yes.

[Sam Albion]

Karma is important, but the wishy-washy, infantile approach most have to this quite sophistcated for its time concept is not the truth of the matter.

Karma, "work/action"... ka... making, ma, measuring -- how you colour (your actions and opinions) the world in turn, colours you. There's no getting away with it. If you fill your mind with Gods, then you will see them everywhere. If you wilfully, daily commit evil acts, eventually, that is what you shall become. It's like smoking, or heroin addiction: you don't wake up overnight and are an addict -- you have to make the effort.

Instead of using the word karma, let's instead use the word... "habitual", or "psychological perspective". You're right about karma, but it's not as black and white as it's painted.

The "collective mind" DOES influence man's perception, but only if a person allows it to. We all know people who, no matter how wrong they are, are convinced they're right. Some people cannot access empathy, or understand the power of ideology no matter how hard you try. They are stupid people, lacking something fundamental. The majority -- is influenced by the collective mind, and also, in turn, influences the collective. That this mind exists, without forms, is another erroneous, wishy washy notion.

Reincarnation, though, is a different kettle of fish. In my belief system, what exists after death always goes on -- where it goes, or if it reemerges as a consciousness on earth, again, depends on them. That a person who tells untruths in life one should, in life two, be born with no tongue, is too simplistic. But, it is a truth that where you go, after death, depends on you, and what you've done and the kind of person you've been while you're here.

You can try to convince yourself that there is no law but will, but you will eventually be proven wrong! There is a law, laws we all share as human beings, and how we interpret and live that law matters.

Yes, you can do what you want to. But, for every action, for every opinion, there is a consequence.

[seattlegal]

Sammy gets it.

Originally Posted by Hermes

it is OK to accept and try to adhere to this(karma) but negative, limiting thoughts based on karma are to be eliminated.
From the perspective of magic - it is all an illusion, hence anything is possible.

Limiting thoughts are also the basis for self-control. Self-control means you are consciously taking part in your own evolution.

Originally Posted by Hermes

The good news is death is also an illusion and your spirit is an immortal, everlasting light that naturally lacks imperfection and flaws.

Not much room for evolution in this statement, eh?

[Hermes]

I too, like Sam's post. I had some difficulty putting this in words as it is a cosmic paradox to say the least. I do not intend to ignore karmic consequences rather I am realizing that ALWAYS blaming current shortcomings on karma is often a blind, further; reincarnation. is for many, especially in India, is just an excuse to inaction and procrastination, "we can always deal with this (or that) in the next life..." - hence nothing changes, improves...

[Nick the Pilot]

Hermes, you said,

"Does it happen because it is the immutable law or because you believe it happens?"

--> It "happens" because this whole universe was artificially created in order to give us a 'training place' to evolve to a higher level of consciousness. And yes, it is a result of immutable law.

"I do not intend to ignore karmic consequences rather I am realizing that ALWAYS blaming current shortcomings on karma is often a blind..."

--> Bad things happen for three reasons. One is, as you have pointed out, due to karma. A second is that we are sometimes intentionally provided with situations we can learn from. A third is that we just mess up -- we still have free will, and we certainly still have the ability to make bad choices, then suffer from those choices.

"we can always deal with this (or that) in the next life..."

--> Postponing a chance to work off bad karma until the next life actually creates more bad karma in some situations.

[Hermes]

The way I see it; making the Matrix analogy - that Karma and Reincarnation are the "Immutable Laws in the Matrix" and can and will have impact on the dreamer, YOU, akin to dying in the matrix can actually kill the dreamer by influencing his subconscious [I know the movie was somehow different]. All "esoteric laws" are with caveats like that, except that, and it is worth repeating; Your spirit is an immortal and everlasting slice of the divine. Life, in the physical existence is only scratching the surface and unseen and untouchable ideals, realms and concepts are usually far more important then physical, hence this perishable "existence".

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by Hermes

I too, like Sam's post. I had some difficulty putting this in words as it is a cosmic paradox to say the least. I do not intend to ignore karmic consequences rather I am realizing that ALWAYS blaming current shortcomings on karma is often a blind, further; reincarnation. is for many, especially in India, is just an excuse to inaction and procrastination, "we can always deal with this (or that) in the next life..." - hence nothing changes, improves...

You might like this essay if you haven't read it yet, Hermes.

Samsara Divided by Zero

[Thomas]

Originally Posted by Hermes

All my esoteric training I was lead to believe that karma and reincarnation are the cornerstone of our cosmic laws and they are immutable in their impact and severity.

Well karma is ... it's the law of cause and effect ... but that does not in itself suppose that some cosmic entity is keeping a tally, and presenting you with the bill.

Reincarnation I generally find problematic, as it is expressed in the West.

Originally Posted by Hermes

Now, after studying further and getting a little deeper into the mysteries ...

which mysteries?

Originally Posted by Hermes

First, I was also taught, from the start the esoteric truth is ...

I tend to think this idea of 'esoteric truth' is somewhat materialistic. I don't think 'esoteric truth' is a field of data not accessible to the everyday eye, rather 'esoteric' signifies that which has a profound effect upon the individual. The actual 'truth' can be quite mundane, but in the right circumstances, can literally change one's life.

It is an order of experience, not of information.

Originally Posted by Hermes

So if, any and all truth are just the subjective realities of our illusion ...

But they're not. That idea is the product of the 'philosophy of relativism' that is the prevalent philosophical disposition in the West currently. All the Great Traditions hold to Objective and Absolute Truths as their core.

Originally Posted by Hermes

No matter how one thinks, the collective mind, humanities' group consciousness will ultimately influence his perception.

Well there's karma in action for you. That is not necessarily a bad thing, nor is it Which is not in itself a bad thing, although it is inescapable.

Originally Posted by Hermes

In the higher realms, time and space does not exist, we know this from empirical evidence of those who have visited these realms and reported the strangeness of their experience.

Careful. If what you say about truth being relative is true, then all we have is subjectivism. We certainly don't have 'empirical evidence', all we have is the anecdotal evidence of something known for its fallibility and capacity for self-delusion.

Originally Posted by Hermes

[I]In infinity, there is no time and space.

Are you sure? I would say in the Infinite, yes, but infinity speaks of limitless distance and duration?

Originally Posted by Hermes

Hence, reincarnation is the illusion ...

I rather think it's a mis-application of the universal at the level of the particular.

Originally Posted by Hermes

that in tandem with the illusion of death...

What marks the human apart as the crowning point of creation is that he lives in two realms, the spiritual and the physical. A disembodied soul is as much use as a disensouled body ... neither if fully 'human'.

It is in God that creation begins; through man it is recollected back to God. This out/back is the exitus and reditus of the Platonic Tradition.

Originally Posted by Hermes

Also karma, as the Law of cause and effect is also an illusion. These illusions are all too real, but ultimately they have little impact on how things really are.

Oh but they do ... if there were no cause and effect, there would be no movement.

Originally Posted by Hermes

It is all in your head, as the saying goes.

I know, but it is said by those who really don't grasp the concept. If it's all in your head, then none of it is real, and none of this matters ... so why bother? It's all a waste of time.

Originally Posted by Hermes

The good news is death is also an illusion and your spirit is an immortal, everlasting light that naturally lacks imperfection and flaws.

That's a self-refuting argument.
Death is not an illusion, it is a change of state. The suppositions of the eschaton are largely illusory, I agree, as no-one really knows what lies beyond the veil.

What do you mean by 'spirit'? If you're talking about the individual psychism, then that is by no means immortal. Even ghosts wear out in the end. If you're talking about Spirit, the Eternal, the Light, then that transcends the individual state and is neither 'you' nor 'yours'.

Nothing in nature 'lacks imperfection or flaws' ... nothing is perfect, as something can always be better.

Originally Posted by Hermes

So fear based morality is not needed...

Ah, I think once again you're using the material definition of fear. In the sacra doctrina of the world, such as the Bible, 'fear' is often not what you suppose it to be — it can mean respect, for example.

Originally Posted by Hermes

it is OK to accept and try to adhere to ... karma but negative, limiting thoughts based on karma are to be eliminated.

Of course, because of their karmic effect. Positive thoughts are to be lauded.

Originally Posted by Hermes

From the perspective of magic — it is all an illusion, hence anything is possible.

Yes, but 'magic' is quite low on the scale of things, it works by the Law of Correspondence. The mysteries you mention above operate well above the domain of magic, if we have the same mysteries in mind.

Just some observations from an old Hermeticist ...

God bless

Thomas