The Use of Spirituality

[path_of_one]

Hare Krishna

Interesting points. I have again some comments and I hope you will be not offended by them. So, let me analyze what you wrote.

Hello, somehow I missed your response a while back, so I'll now respond. And no worries about offending me; I am not easily offended.

* I also think God doesn't have any needs, and desires only our love
# He is complete, perfect and self-satisfied. If you say He desires or needs our love it would turn out He is not complete, perfect and self-satisfied. But He likes to reciprocate devotion what is the only source of happiness for the individual soul.
I think perhaps this is a difference between how your religion and my own perceives God. We do not believe it makes God any less perfect or complete that He desires that His created beings love Him. Indeed, in this desire and His constant reaching out toward us, He is selflessly trying to provide joy for us, as it is in the embrace of God that one comes to know ultimate joy.

* all nature glorifies God and feels His Presence.
# This is your speculation. (Sorry for the words) Moreover, you cannot proof this statement.
My proof is my own experience and God-guided interpretation of the scriptures of my sacred text, the Bible. There is also proof in the many religions and spiritual traditions through the ages, going back to the very first forms of human spirituality.
If under the nature you think about beasts and plants etc. I already explained they are aware only of their bodily existence and look only after how to survive. Their feelings and affection is on the bodily platform and so have nothing to do with soul or God.
Your proof is only your own interpretation of one religion's sacred text- the Vedas, and your own experience, just as my proof is also my intepretation of my own sacred text, other religions' sacred narratives, and my own experience. Spiritual things cannot be proven in the physical world, for they necessarily are subjective.
Therefore, from all the symptoms how sensually they live it is obvious that they are forgetful about God. This is confirmed in the Vedas and by the self-realized people. Anything else is just a sentimental, whimsical speculation.
Again, I think this is based on a misunderstanding of sensuality in life. Sensuality is, by definition, expressing or suggesting physical pleasure or satisfaction. It is notable that this concept relies on a clear boundary between matter and energy, physicality and spirituality, that is not present in many cultures and religions. However, even taking for granted that there is such a boundary, it is impossible to delineate between much of spiritual action, your own included, and physical pleasure/satisfaction. Research has proven that meditation, chanting, praying, ecstatic dancing, etc. produces bodily, physical changes in individuals, and releases hormones in the body that produce good feelings, emotional (which are still physical- they depend on hormones) and physical (reducing pain, decreasing healing time, etc.). Ecstatic trance states, entered through drumming, dancing, chanting, meditation, etc. are not just spiritual states, they are physical states- they produce alterations in heart rate, breathing patterns, brain waves, etc. They produce similar effects of many drugs, including hallucinogens. This is all proven by scientific research. Asceticism, including fasting, sleep fasting, exposure to elements, etc. accelerate the process of entering trance states. So even actions that seem ultimately to deny sensual experience, lead to feelings of physical pleasure or satisfaction- namely the euphoric joy that comes in ecstatic spiritual states. My beliefs are not fluff- they are based on extensive research and study of a variety of religions as well as my own and science, tempered always by my own experience intepreted through the Holy Spirit. I do not dismiss your beliefs as anthropomorphic, human-centered, or based purely on speculation- please be respectful and not dismiss mine (and the countless other people who are of earth-based and indigenous spiritualities) as whimsical, speculative, and sentimental. If you insist that only your religion contains spiritual truth, why bother having dialogue with others?
But anyway, I don't think it's worthy that I repeat these things. Despite of all evidences an explanation you will just think the same as you would be better than the scriptures and God's words.
Yes, I will, because my own beliefs are similarly based on scientific research, sacred texts, and personal experience. I do not believe I am better than the scriptures, but your scriptures are not my own, and surely you can respect that just as I respect your beliefs. I merely note how my own differ, but I am not saying that you believe yourself to be above sacred text. You follow Krishna, and I follow Christ. Your scriptures are the Vedas, and mine are the Bible. I doubt any brief discussions on an interfaith forum will change either of our minds, nor should it if our faith is strong in our own tradition.

* I think there is a big difference between acquiring social knowledge and acquiring spiritual knowledge.
# Spiritual knowledge is even more difficult to get than any other type of knowledge. You can get it only from one who knows who God is what is the soul and what is the soul's eternal relationship with God.
As a Quaker Christian, I don't believe that one receives spiritual knowledge from any other but God. Sacred text and the Spirit of God speaking through those around us can lead us toward spiritual wisdom, but only through the Grace and working of God. I don't believe a pastor, guru, etc. is necessary, though they can be helpful if the Spirit of God leads you to them.
He should also be able to give guidance in practicing pure unalloyed devotion to God; not mixed devotion to God, mixed with material enjoyment or speculations. These things are very difficult to know for the materially conditioned soul therefor a spiritual master is of utmost necessity for the sincere spiritual seeker
Hence, following Jesus Christ. In having Christ, no other is needed, though God can give wisdom through dialogue with others. Most Christians believe that once a person gives their life over to Christ, Christ dwells within us and we are led by God Himself through the Holy Spirit. Even if one was completely bereft of other company, one would have God, through Jesus Christ, as his/her spiritual master.

* we are born into social ignorance, but not spiritual ignorance.
# this statement is valid only when one already practiced spirituality in his previous life.
That is a tenet of your beliefs, but not many Christians. I think reincarnation does happen, but not the way it is proposed by Hinduism or Buddhism as a mechanistic process. Far more Christians do not believe reincarnation happens at all. So it's essentially a big difference between your religion and mine. I'm of the mindset of the Celtic Christians, all were created by God and all have the spark of God in them. According to the Biblical scriptures, humans were created in the image and likeness of God, and thus the Celtic Christians believe that all, in their heart, know God. Not all recognize what they know, and fewer still act on that knowledge.

* I believe that there is divine light, the breath of God, the inner yearning for connection with the Big Something in every one of us
# Yes, this is correct. However, if you would never come in touch with somebody who told you about it you would never be aware about it.
I disagree. Human beings each have brains with rational thought processes and the capacity for aesthetic, emotional, and spiritual experience. We are tremendously social creatures and learn a lot from our cultures, but we are not slaves to society. We also can gather information from our own thought process and the world around us. The proof for this is people from cultures all over the world that wind up with tremendously different spiritual beliefs than what they should have, given their upbringing.

[path_of_one]

* We can follow this inner longing and light, leading us home to God
# As I mentioned before only the spiritually advanced person can have such connection with God from within (not light; light is part of Him; depends on ones degree of realization of God).
The inner divine light is part of God- God immanent in us. But yes, God is more than this; any Christian would agree with that. I suppose Christianity is really more about equality. We operate with a radically different notion of the self and life than you are discussing. All are equal in the eyes of God in Christianity- we are all saved solely through the Grace of God. According to our scriptures, nature speaks of its Creator, so even those without the scriptural text have the book of nature to guide them to God, and our scriptures also say the "word is written on our hearts." Every person is equally able to connect with God in Christianity. We do recognize that different people connect with God differently- some through ritual in church, some through study of sacred text, some through mysticism, some through an inner journey toward the divine light of the soul, others through an outward journey toward God manifest in religion, some through service to humanity, some through simple living. Ideally, one connects to God in all ways. We don't believe, however, that there is an elite group that is "spiritually advanced." We all try to learn from each other, and we believe that God gives everyone different gifts and no gift is better than another. Some have gifts for scholarship and study, some for prophecy and divine inspiration, some for preaching God's word to others, some for practical service, etc. Basically, we all are born different, but equal, in Christianity.

* spiritual masters, as you speak of, and my own Lord, Jesus Christ, are not giving us knowledge, but rather awakening what is already within us, inherent in our deepest nature from the moment we were created by God.
# Correct. There is a need for living spiritual master to who you can ask questions and be guided by him. By his mercy the inner spiritual knowledge and love of God can be awakened.
Yep. As a Christian, this spiritual master of Jesus Christ is generally seen as unique in all creation, but I'm flexible on this. We communicate with God/Jesus Christ through the Holy Spirit, the aspect of God that manifests as divine inspiration.

* we are born, I believe, good and knowing God.
# The soul has eternally love of God in itself. However, this is covered to different degrees even up to a degree when one is called a demon. So, even the devil has love of God deeply within himself.
Most Christians would disagree, but I agree with you. I think what happens is if you envision this love of God, this divine essence within us, as light- if one clouds the light in a fog of wrong-doing and hides the light under a bed (as Jesus discussed), the light doesn't go out, but it is forgotten and remains a tiny flame. If one faithfully fans the flame of this light, and puts it where all the world can see it, God accordingly gives ever more light.
That means the material world is for those souls who desire to forget God. In the spiritual world we will always remember God.
I think the material world was created by God and so is inherently good, as my scriptures say. It is a place for people to serve God, if they so choose, and I think some people come back here in service to God and not because they wish to forget Him. I don't think being a spirit necessarily means we are in union with God or serving Him. Demons are spirits, but they actively work against God. If you mean, by "spiritual world" a concept of heaven- a place of unity of God and people who love Him, then yes, it is impossible to forget Him there.

* The mark of spirituality for a Christian is not knowledge, or even a quest for knowledge, but rather love
# To come to love there are different stages one is going through. One is acquiring knowledge that helps spiritual development. Knowledge is a need. Like in the school you learn how to do different things, getting spiritual knowledge you learn who is God; His qualities; His pastimes; how does His abode look; who are His associates; the different processes of attaining Him; How to please Him; what does He likes the most etc.
Again, I think this is a very different idea about God in the two religions. Christians don't tend to see God as having pastimes or a house, at least many of us don't. Our scriptures say that knowledge can be a good thing, but knowledge is not necessarily wisdom, nor is it faith. One can be very knowledgable about the scriptures, but lack faith and devotion. Learning about God doesn't necessarily yield devotion, but devotion yields learning about God. It is common in Christianity to believe that a choice to seek after God- a step of faith- is the necessary first step, from which comes guidance by God Himself through the Holy Spirit.
Knowledge about God is unlimited because He is also unlimited and hearing about it increases ones affection and love for Him. The knowledge related to God is not ordinary bla bla.
Of course. That is why people's expression of spiritual wisdom is related in sacred narratives. They are sacred because they arise from people's experiences with and wisdom gained from God.
Or let it put it like this, If you don't need knowledge why you read the Bible, why you are in forum? Anyway, religion without spiritual knowledge is only sentimentalism.
Need is too strong a word, I think. I believe we have salvation only through the grace of God and that my knowledge has nothing to do with it. No amount of knowledge I could ever gain would be enough. However, through my love of God and of my fellow humankind (and all creation), I desire to know about my spiritual tradition and those of others, as well as desiring to study science, social science, and humanities to understand how I can apply spiritual wisdom to practical action- "loving neighbor as self" in the example of Christ- through healing, feeding, serving his lambs. The knowledge or wisdom I receive from God is a blessing, but it isn't what gets me to heaven. Some people are born without a high capacity to attain knowledge, and I don't think it makes any impact whatsoever on their salvation. When they turn toward God, as best they can, and love Him, they will gain what wisdom they can receive, and will be saved through God's mercy, just as I am. Neither of us, despite our differences in knowledge, will be higher in God's eyes. It is the action of turning toward God, both in our thoughts and our actions, that is the key. I would say that religion without action is sentimentalism. Jesus Christ taught that our lives- our actions- should be testimony to our relationship with God. We are called to love God, yes, but along with this in Christianity is loving one's neighbor as oneself. One cannot love another being equal to oneself if one feels superior to another, or does not serve others. Jesus was the perfect example of God's servant, and we are called to live in his example, which was a life of action among ordinary people, a life of service and giving and love. One certainly shouldn't neglect love of God, and spiritual practice is necessary for refreshment and guidance for the soul (Jesus said to come unto him, and he would give us rest, so we often spend time in prayer and study), but in Chrisitianity, the evidence of one's faith and devotion is in the "fruit of the Spirit"- love, joy, peace, long-suffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, self-control. As you can see, any person can show the evidence of devotion to Jesus Christ, even a person who is severely mentally handicapped like my uncle. My uncle can't read the Bible, nor can he understand a lot of Christian theology, but he knows Jesus loves him and he loves God with much devotion and shows the fruit. A Christian would believe he is saved and is going to heaven when he dies, despite the fact that he has little knowledge about God, because though he lacks knowledge, he has faith and his life is testimony to this devotion. We are taught by Jesus that we must become as little children to enter the Kingdom of Heaven, indicating that there is a spiritual condition of children that is good and right, despite their lack of religious knowledge.

* Rather than knowledge, I seek experience.
# Good desire. But to know that your experience is bona fide and not only the imagination of your mind it is better that you have spiritual knowledge.
This is given, in Christianity, through the experience of the Holy Spirit, who guides us in our reading of sacred scripture. It is the Spirit that lets us know what is imagination and what is of God. Since the Holy Spirit is God Himself, manifest as divine inspiration and guidance, we believe no worldly teacher can be above this guidance.

* pastimes/activities/etc. of God. This may point out a different conceptualization of God, because I would think it impossible and unnecessary to understand such things about God.
# Nothing is impossible. Especially not for the sincere, serious spiritual practitioner of spiritual life. God is the origin of everything. Many personalities originated from Him. All of them have forms and perform activities. Naturally the source of everybody God must also be a person who can perform different activities.
We don't think so. Most Christians do believe that God is a personal Being, but also much more than that. Furthermore, many do not believe He is a human-like person. By "personal" we mean He has thoughts and is not just a mechanical force in the universe (like electricity or gravity), we don't mean He is anthropomorphic. While God is the origin of all, we believe He is beyond the all as well, and so does not have form in his entirety, though He may assume form for the sake of communicating with us in a way that we understand. In our scriptures, sometimes the form is through a prophet and sometimes it is not (a burning bush, for example). As Christians we believe that ultimately He came in the form of Jesus Christ, either as an incarnation or a complete indwelling, and most believe that this event was unique. Christians do not confuse the bodily form of Jesus with the divine soul of God that dwelled in him. God, without form, came to rest in a human body, but God is not the form of a human body. God certainly does stuff, but we don't think of Him as being like a human, needing sleep or food or anything like that, though we can offer things like food to God in an act of love.

* Spirituality can be felt as connection to God, but it also can be felt as connection to the earth
# Well, only if you see the earth in connection with God.
Many others would disagree, based on different definitions of spirituality. Overall, most people agree spirituality is a connection to spirit- to the More. Whether or not this is understood as God varies by culture, individual, and religion. Buddhists aren't focused on connection to God- do you deny they have a sense of spirituality? And if a person like the Buddha is spiritual, though not focused on God, why couldn't a Pagan person be spiritual through their connection with the spirits of nature? I did not mean the earth as a material collection of stuff- I meant the spirits behind that material collection.
How you can enjoy the earth? with your material senses. Material senses produce material feelings.
Actually, this isn't the case for most Pagans. If you believe there is a spirit world (or collection of Otherworlds) beyond the material one, overlaid with it- a shift of consciousness allows one to enjoy the earth as spiritual fellowship rather than materially. It isn't just about looking at a pretty sunset or sitting under some nice shade trees. Many Pagans would be simultaneously experiencing a dialogue with the tree spirits, and a sense of gratefulness for the sun's energy and light. Shamans walk in multiple worlds at once, and the earth is not just a material plane for them, even if they do not believe in God.

* I do not think spirituality is limited to experiencing God,
# Spirituality means there must be something that make the experience spiritual either God or the soul. So, once more. One have to learn to see God everywhere.
Personally, I always saw God everywhere, as far back as I can remember. That's just how I experience God. I don't think I'm better than other people for it, though. God blessed me with this way of connecting to Him, and He blessed others with their ways of connecting to Him. But I didn't have to learn it- it was inside of me.
That is spiritual consciousness or as we call it Krishna consciousness. As much more you will increase your love for God you will become more God conscious and then your present opinion will certainly change that spirituality is not limited only to experiencing God.
Thank you for your opinion, but I do not think any person is qualified to tell another what their spiritual beliefs will be over time. That would be like me telling you that in time you'll come to know Christ and your ideas will change. Why do either of us need to change? We each are on a path that leads to devotion to God, spiritual development, and a consciousness of God in all that is (and thus a love for it). Why not just respect the differences and not presuppose there is a "goal" belief to which all will come? I already see God everywhere, but I do not suppose that people who do not are somehow below me in spiritual development. They experience God in the way that is right for them, and I don't think they are any less saved than myself.
When love of God is fully developed one don't want to forget God even for a second. A second of forgetfulness of God is like hell to him.
I agree.


Peace to you on your path