There is no such thing as 'Free Will' - Page 18

rodgertutt · 06-18-2009, 09:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by citizenzen

Here, let me rephrase it for you.

You do what you do because you do it, otherwise it would not have been done.

(bolded and italicized even!)

Everything I and the Blue Jays have done is because the strongest influences caused us to do it. That's why the Jays are ahead again.

greymare · 06-18-2009, 09:14 PM

My head hurts reading your posts.
LOL

rodgertutt · 06-18-2009, 09:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by greymare

My head hurts reading your posts.
LOL

I don't recommend banging your head against a post.
No wonder it hurts!

rodgertutt · 06-18-2009, 10:33 PM

Well, it looks like the strongest influence prevailed again.
How about them Blue Jays eh?!!

seattlegal · 06-19-2009, 02:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by citizenzen

Drivel.

You've repeated that line so often to yourself that it's become a mantra.

Whatever works for you.

He appears to be under its influence.

rodgertutt · 06-19-2009, 03:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seattlegal

He appears to be under its influence.

Under what influence?

Do you mean under the influence of the fact that I always, without exception, choose in the direction of the strongest sets of influences all of the time? If so, you are right about that because it is simply impossible for me to choose what I do not prefer. The fact that I choose it proves that I prefer it at least slightly more than other influences that are almost just as strong.

Same thing is true for everyone else too.

Therefore there is no such a thing as "free will."

citizenzen · 06-19-2009, 03:27 AM

It is obvious that you rely on absolute statements more than any other being that has ever existed in the entire universe.

rodgertutt · 06-19-2009, 03:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by citizenzen

It is obvious that you rely on absolute statements more than any other being that has ever existed in the entire universe.

If I knew how every other being in the universe thinks I might agree with you.

juantoo3 · 06-19-2009, 04:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rodgertutt

Do you mean under the influence of the fact that I always, without exception, choose in the direction of the strongest sets of influences all of the time?

I am not seattlegal, nor do I play her on tv, but I'll take a stab at this consistant with my earlier comments...

You are assuming that the influence you are under is that of G-d and / or some benevolent *force.* Biblically, that is an erroneous assumption. It is erroneous because it fails to take into account fallen or non-benevolent entities or forces. If there were no non-benevolent entities or states of being, there would be no need for the ethical and moral lessons contained in "G-d's Word."

One must consider that the possibility exists of being in a non-proper state of being in relation to the Divine. "G-d's Word" is a series of lessons designed to bring persons more in line with a proper state of being in relation to the Divine. If one is already doing what the Divine "influences" them to do, then there is no need for ethical and moral lessons to bring them to be more in line with a proper state of being, and the Bible serves no purpose but to waste paper and ink.

In other words, G-d is made a liar if people are not responsible for their own actions. Is G-d a liar?

rodgertutt · 06-19-2009, 04:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by juantoo3

I am not seattlegal, nor do I play her on tv, but I'll take a stab at this consistant with my earlier comments...

You are assuming that the influence you are under is that of G-d and / or some benevolent *force.* Biblically, that is an erroneous assumption. It is erroneous because it fails to take into account fallen or non-benevolent entities or forces. If there were no non-benevolent entities or states of being, there would be no need for the ethical and moral lessons contained in "G-d's Word."

One must consider that the possibility exists of being in a non-proper state of being in relation to the Divine. "G-d's Word" is a series of lessons designed to bring persons more in line with a proper state of being in relation to the Divine. If one is already doing what the Divine "influences" them to do, then there is no need for ethical and moral lessons to bring them to be more in line with a proper state of being, and the Bible serves no purpose but to waste paper and ink.

In other words, G-d is made a liar if people are not responsible for their own actions. Is G-d a liar?

Nope, God's not a liar. We are accountable, but not responsible for our actions. The idea that it wouldn't be right for God to punish us for what we could not help doing is only an ethical opinion that is rendered irrelevant by the fact that we always, without exception, choose in the direction of the strongest sets of influences all of the time? It is simply impossible for anyone to choose what they do not prefer. The fact that they choose it proves that they prefer it at least slightly more than other influences that are almost just as strong.

I believe that after our resurrection from the dead God will eventually somehow transform every second of everyone's suffering into something better that it happened.

That includes both the unexplained and unjustifiable suffering that we all experience in varying degrees, as well as what the Bible calls "kolasis aionian" which means age-during corrective chastisement that everyone who needs it will experience.

I believe that God will eventually fit every unique individual into His master plan in a positive way that necessitates their unique temporary involvement in evil and suffering that will enable God to manifest, and glorify, and magnify the many facets of His character in a way that uniquely involves that person, and everyone else involved in that person’s life too.

juantoo3 · 06-19-2009, 04:56 AM

And the Nephilim?

rodgertutt · 06-19-2009, 05:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by juantoo3

And the Nephilim?

Please explain what you mean by that question.
Thanks

juantoo3 · 06-19-2009, 05:03 AM

Forgive me. I thought that if you were familiar with a term like "kolasis aionian" that you would be familiar with a common term used in Genesis and discussed at length among theologians. My bad.

rodgertutt · 06-19-2009, 05:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by juantoo3

Forgive me. I thought that if you were familiar with a term like "kolasis aionian" that you would be familiar with a common term used in Genesis and discussed at length among theologians. My bad.

Enlighten me.
What are you getting at?

Dream · 06-19-2009, 09:13 PM

Hi Mr. Tutt. I didn't realize at first that you were an elder and wasn't caught up on the thread when I posted. Surely 47 years of marriage speaks for itself. It is likely that you are correct about the whole Free Will thing, yet it really is an oft mis-understood topic. This has always been tricky for all of my friends. I feel it is really more important to value your experience than to see perfectly eye to eye with you. I don't understand why we disagree, but perhaps I will someday.