There is no such thing as 'Free Will' - Page 34

Snoopy · 07-02-2009, 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by citizenzen

Let's just say that when you "erroneously" attribute them to me you shouldn't be surprised if I call you on it.

Sorry if we're misunderstanding each other here. I wasn't trying to erroneously attribute anything to you. I was saying that it seems to me that you gently try to educate Patti in her views because her views are erroneous.

Anyway, have a banana.

s.

Snoopy · 07-02-2009, 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by immortalitylost

We both do and do not have free will.

If I agreed anymore with this apparent paradox, I'd probably have a hernia. How we get to it may be different but who cares, the weather's lovely.

s.

immortalitylost · 07-04-2009, 07:46 AM

I'm so glad!

But lets try not to have a hernia shall we? That can't be good for you.

I was so worried that I'd come back to a hailstorm of posts that I'd have to wade through (I just got Sims 3 and haven't been able to un-glue myself long enough for a visit) but it isn't too crazy here. Phew.

But yeah, I guess that means I have nothing to argue about if I believe that there is both free will and predestination, huh. Really takes the stress out of life.

Yes, lovely weather we're having, right right, quite agree.

See ya!

Snoopy · 07-04-2009, 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by immortalitylost

I was so worried that I'd come back to a hailstorm of posts that I'd have to wade through

It's not compulsory to wade through everything that's been posted since you last came here

What if your PC broked for a month or you went on holiday for two weeks??!! Just cherry pick the most interesting/silly/colourful/stimulating/random posts (whatever)...that would give you extra time for sticking your face in a cat's tummy and going "bbbrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr". And why do they smell of vanilla? Ah bless...

s.

immortalitylost · 07-05-2009, 06:59 PM

True, true! But my kitty smells like fabric softener...

I think that he has my dog fluff him up in the dryer every few days. How else can his fur be so very puffy, ALL the time?!

See ya!

PS: "bbbrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr" lolololol! Such a cute visual!!!

rodgertutt · 04-14-2010, 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azure24

'Free will' is a myth, God is reposible for everything and He brings about everything only at its precise "appointed seaon and time".

Ecclesiastes 3

A Time for Everything
1 There is a time for everything,
and a season for every activity under heaven

Ecclesiastes 8:6 (New International Version)

6 For there is a proper time and procedure for every matter,
though a man's misery weighs heavily upon him.

Ecclesiastes 3:17 (New International Version)

17 I thought in my heart,
"God will bring to judgment
both the righteous and the wicked,
for there will be a time for every activity,
a time for every deed."

All is of God
2Corinthians 5:18

God works ALL things according to the counsel of His own will
Ephesians 1:11

I too think that "free" will is a myth, and an illusion.

Let me explain.

When I think of “free” will, the definition of that I have in mind is the idea, that during the act of making a choice, it is possible to not choose something that is having the strongest influence on your mind.

I maintain that is logically impossible. Thus, no "free will."

The combined influence of internal preference, i.e. finally deciding what we want MOST after due deliberation, plus external persuasive considerations will CAUSE all choices to occur.

The exact same set of influences in the exact same situation (if that were even possible) would always produce the exact same choice in the exact same person at that particular point in time.

That is why it is not even possible to choose differently than we do at any given point in time.

IMO this cannot be perceive as "free" will since we always choose what we want MOST at that point in time. A few seconds before, and a few seconds afterwards, we may have wanted something different MOST. But at that particular point in time we could only choose what we wanted the MOST.

During the act of making a choice, it is not even possible to refuse to choose whatever is having the strongest combination of influences on our mind to choose.

The REASONS that we choose "something" over "something else" are the CAUSES of our choice.

If we insist that our will is so "free" that it was not caused to choose, we are saying that there were no reasons that we chose what we chose.
That would mean that we had to have chosen randomly (e.g. flipping a coin), i.e. not based on any reason, or combination of reasons.

In either case, a caused choice, or a random choice, could not have been prevented. The choice that was made was the only choice that could have been made at that point in time.

Consequently, in both cases IMO, "free" will not only does not exist, but cannot exist.

Martin Luther's BONDAGE OF THE WILL is excellent on this subject.
The Bondage of the Will

rodgertutt · 04-14-2010, 02:58 PM

Martin Luther's BONDAGE OF THE WILL is excellent on this subject.
The Bondage of the Will
(especially Luther's section called "CONCLUSION")

shawn · 04-15-2010, 01:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snoopy

I..that would give you extra time for sticking your face in a cat's tummy and going "bbbrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr". And why do they smell of vanilla? Ah bless...

s.

Sounds like a sure way to get ones face scratched off.

Vanilla...hmmm your alcoholic cat has been nipping.

shawn · 04-15-2010, 01:30 AM

RodgerT

Interesting ideas.
Everyone has a set of ideas and beliefs which can be called a paradigm which influences all our choices. Choices are not just random.
We choose this over that due to reasons which we largely do not even understand.
Most choices are made impulsively as they "felt right".
If there are say 10 choices at a given moment, but one's faculties were impaired or were only capable of perceiving 5 choices then the choices were limited by that inability to perceive.
But we are all thusly handi-capped as we all see through the glass dimly.
It is part of our nature and is our flaw.
Maybe we are led.
But to say we have no freedom to choice is like saying a prisoner is not free.Their body is indeed a captive, but they can be free in their minds.
We are all prisoners of our perception, which is the limiting valve of choice.
Maybe that is why psychedelics are illegal.

rodgertutt · 04-15-2010, 02:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shawn

RodgerT

But to say we have no freedom to choose is like saying a prisoner is not free. Their body is indeed a captive, but they can be free in their minds.
We are all prisoners of our perception, which is the limiting value of choice.

We are only "free" to choose what we perceive to be the "choicest" at any given point in time.

We will always choose the choice that we want the MOST.

That is why every choice we have ever made is the only one we could have made at that point in time.

citizenzen · 04-15-2010, 03:11 AM

Rodgertutt: the human skipping record.

Shawn, get used to his message now, because it's the only thing you'll hear, post after post [skip]...

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shawn · 04-15-2010, 03:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rodgertutt

We are only "free" to choose what we perceive to be the "choicest" at any given point in time.

We will always choose the choice that we want the MOST.

That is why every choice we have ever made is the only one we could have made at that point in time.

What we decide to do is based not only on what we "want", but on what we think is the "wisest course" or the "best option" for many other reasons.
Sometimes what we choose is not what we really want.
I have several instances I can think of in my life where I chose what was best for someone else and it cost me and resulted in unpleasant results for me.
But it was the best choice given the circumstances.

What then of altruism and selfless giving?
Or in instances when people have sacrificed their own lives so that another may live?
That is not what they wanted otherwise it wouldn't be a sacrifice.

But we are debating something which will always be in the realm of opinion as we will never have a definitive "last word" from an ultimate authority on this matter.
So, if you gain comfort from believing that you are a puppet with no free-will and no real choice, then carry on and believe it.
I choose not to.

rodgertutt · 04-15-2010, 03:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shawn

What we decide to do is based not only on what we "want", but on what we think is the "wisest course" or the "best option" for many other reasons.
Sometimes what we choose is not what we really want.
I have several instances I can think of in my life where I chose what was best for someone else and it cost me and resulted in unpleasant results for me.
But it was the best choice given the circumstances.

You did in fact choose what you really wanted at that particular point in time, all things considered, even if a few seconds earlier, and a few seconds later you really wanted something else.
In fact you may have wanted something else MOST of the time. But at the particular time that you actually made the choice, you wanted that choice the MOST because "it was the best choice given the circumstances."

Quote:

Originally Posted by shawn

What then of altruism and selfless giving?
Or in instances when people have sacrificed their own lives so that another may live?
That is not what they wanted otherwise it wouldn't be a sacrifice.

Altruism is ALWAYS something that they wanted to do the MOST if they actually do it.
Even though they also had a strong desire not to sacrifice their life, yet at that point in time when they actually did it, that was the choice that they desired to do the MOST.

Quote:

Originally Posted by shawn

if you gain comfort from believing that you are a puppet with no free-will and no real choice, then carry on and believe it.
I choose not to.

We do share one thing in common with puppets, and that is causality. Everything we believe and do is the product of the combination of strongest influences that have been brought to bear upon our mind at the time.
We always, without exception, choose in the direction of the STRONGEST sets of influences every time.

It is absolutely impossible to choose what we do not prefer MOST.
The fact that we choose it proves that we preferred it MOST at least at that particular point in time, even though there may have been other influences that were almost just as strong. For example, try to believe differently than you do right now. You can't can you? And you won't be able to until/unless stronger influences CAUSE you to do so.

The only "real choice" we have is to choose what we want the MOST at any particular point in time.

citizenzen · 04-15-2010, 04:11 AM

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shawn · 04-15-2010, 04:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rodgertutt

Y

The only "real choice" we have is to choose what we want the MOST at any particular point in time.

Which is a very confusing way of saying the same thing.
I know you are seeking to magnify a very small detail, but you end up looking like you are splitting hairs and saying the same basic thing in the end.
I am not being argumentative, or putting down what you think, just making comments.