There is no such thing as 'Free Will'

[citizenzen]

Originally Posted by rodgertutt

I'm kinda hoping that kind of God would be "more repulsive" to you.

You're right. That God is even more repulsive than your repulsive God.

Congratulations Tutt! You don't believe in the most odious deity out there!

[rodgertutt]

Originally Posted by citizenzen

You're right. That God is even more repulsive than your repulsive God.
Congratulations Tutt! You don't believe in the most odious deity out there!

I'm not capable of perceiving God as "odious" Who has the intention, and the ability, to successfully transform all suffering into something better for everyone that it happened.

Considering the fact that suffering DOES exist, the strongest reason influencing my decision about Him is that it is not only just acceptable, but also desireable that God is like I hope He is.
THE PURPOSE OF EVIL
evil.html

[wil]

Originally Posted by citizenzen

True. The main difference is that in Buddhism human suffering is ended by people, facilitated through acts of their own free will (Eightfold Path) and not a state merely granted by one's God.

Many in Christianity believe the same thing. Folks have to realize no one corners the market on these beliefs.

Originally Posted by rodgertutt

I believe that God is 100% responsible for all of the evil and suffering in the world.

So 200,000,000 last century...dead and you believe this is all due to G!d? Downright scary the way you justify this.

Originally Posted by citizenzen

I will remember, however, that anytime I hear of suffering... anytime a little girl is kidnapped, raped and murdered... anytime a child is neglected, beaten and starved... anytime cruelty is perpetrated against an innocent person, that according Rodger Tutt, your God intentionally caused it to occur.

I cannot imagine a God more repulsive than the one to which you pray.

You are the reason that I'm an atheist.

If his belief was the primary or only belief in G!d, I'd be leading the parade to join ya.

[rodgertutt]

Originally Posted by wil

So 200,000,000 last century...dead and you believe this is all due to G!d? Downright scary the way you justify this.

I perceive nothing "scary" about a God who is going to raise everyone from the dead and permanently get rid of all death, and sorrow, and crying, and pain, and transform all previous suffering into something better that it happened.
THE PURPOSE OF EVIL
evil.html

Faced with the fact that suffering and death DOES exist, I can't imagine how anyone could improve on that perception of God.

[citizenzen]

Originally Posted by rodgertutt

I'm not capable of perceiving God as "odious"...

God isn't odious.

It's your interpretation of God that is.

[Marsh]

Originally Posted by rodgertutt

When you later "decided not to," that decision superceeded your first decision. The reason you changed your mind was the strongest influence that CAUSED your second decision.

Ah, but you see, these decisions occured in essentially the same moment. Thus, there could not have been a change on the influences acting upon my mind. Thus, your assertion falls flat.

[rodgertutt]

Originally Posted by citizenzen

God isn't odious.
It's your interpretation of God that is.

Wait a minute citizen. You just said you don't believe in God.
what's up with that.

[rodgertutt]

Originally Posted by Marsh

Ah, but you see, these decisions occured in essentially the same moment. Thus, there could not have been a change on the influences acting upon my mind. Thus, your assertion falls flat.

If they occured exactly "at the same moment" they would cancel each other out, and no decision would occur at all. If they did not occur at the same moment, then an influence (reason) did act on your mind if you changed it.

When you later "decided not to," that decision superceeded your first decision. The reason you changed your mind was the strongest influence that CAUSED your second decision.

Every choice we ever made was the only choice we could have made because we chose what we preferred the MOST at that particluar split second in time.

A few seconds before, or a few seconds afterwards, we may have chosen something else due to influences that were non-existent when we actually did make the choice.

No one has ever made a choice without a reason, even if that reason was only to choose randomly, e.g. flipping a coin.

The reason was the influence that CAUSED us to choose what we did choose.

At that particular split-second in time that was the ONLY choice we could have made based on the reason why we preferred that choice the MOST.

"therefore contrary choice or “free" will not only does not exist but cannot exist."

[citizenzen]

Originally Posted by rodgertutt

Wait a minute citizen. You just said you don't believe in God.
what's up with that.

Buddhists believe that wisdom and compassion are universal components. These components have been described as "formless fields of benefaction". It isn't hard for me to see how this can be interpreted as "God". But I am atheistic in seeing this as a personal God, one that created the universe, one that controls my life and judges my soul.

Why does suffering exist?

I have no idea. Buddhism directly addresses how to end suffering in one's life, but I don't presume to know ultimately why we are built with the capacity to suffer. But I do think that mankind is perfectly capable of cruelty we inflict upon each other. I don't need to invent a deity to explain it.

[rodgertutt]

Originally Posted by citizenzen

I do think that mankind is perfectly capable of cruelty we inflict upon each other. I don't need to invent a deity to explain it.

I'm not "inventing" a deity either.
I'm guiding people to reasons why universalist Christians believe like they do, that eventually the afterlife will have no death, sorrow, crying, or pain, for anyone, and all suffering will be transformed into something better that it happened.

I don't know if anyone actually reads this link, but I keep repeating it because it is an excellent writing (from a universalist Christian point of view) on why I believe like I do.
THE PURPOSE OF EVIL
evil.html

[seattlegal]

You know, I can't see how the act of holding a grudge vs the act of forgiveness is not an act of free will. Grudges will wear down your will and enslave you, but forgiveness will increase it. *shrugs*

[Gatekeeper]

Originally Posted by citizenzen

It makes me think that your God is a sadist. If he intended for Adam and Eve to suffer then He also intended that every creature on Earth be wiped out in the flood. Why create something with the intent to destroy it?

You've said that you think people who teach eternal Hell are despicable (my word) yet you teach that God intentionally makes mankind suffer and intentionally destroyed every creeping thing that creeps upon the Earth. So it's difficult for me to see your perspective as anything but manipulative and despicable as well.

God created man with a sense of self (Obviously). It is in this sense of self that man becomes selfish, lustful, and self serving. Yes, God knew that we would fall, and that evil (Suffering) would manifest on this earth.

Is God responsible?

Only in the sense that He gave us the free will to choose self (Lust) over His Spirit (Love). Evil and suffering exists (In my mind) so we might one day choose love over lust on our own vocation.

God created us; we are the ones who ushered evil into the world, so it is only in this sense that God is responsible for evil. He merely gave man the ability to choose self (Lust) above Him (His Spirit/Love). We can live only for self, or we can live in a manner beneficial to those around us.

God doesn't force man to harm others; He simply gave man the awareness of self, which allowed man to become selfish, lustful, and self serving.

In other words, God has allowed all mankind to have what we each desire most. It just so happens that our selfish, lustful, and self serving ways create pain, suffering, and evil in this world.

[rodgertutt]

Originally Posted by seattlegal

You know, I can't see how the act of holding a grudge vs the act of forgiveness is not an act of free will. Grudges will wear down your will and enslave you, but forgiveness will increase it. *shrugs*

Whatever considerations are having the strongest influence on you to do for whatever sets of reasonings you deem them the most desirable to do at the time you are making a choice, is what you actually will do.
You are not "free" to do otherwise.

[rodgertutt]

Originally Posted by Gatekeeper

God created man with a sense of self (Obviously). It is in this sense of self that man becomes selfish, lustful, and self serving. Yes, God knew that we would fall, and that evil (Suffering) would manifest on this earth.
Is God responsible?
Only in the sense that He gave us the free will to choose self (Lust) over His Spirit (Love). Evil and suffering exists (In my mind) so we might one day choose love over lust on our own vocation.

There is no such a thing as "free" will.

God has locked everyone up in a lifetime of choices that can ONLY be made in the direction of the STRONGEST influence all of the time.

Every choice we ever made was the only choice we could have made because we chose what we preferred the MOST at that particluar split second in time.

A few seconds before, or a few seconds afterwards, we may have chosen something else due to influences that were non-existent when we actually did make the choice.

No one has ever made a choice without a reason, even if that reason was only to choose randomly, e.g. flipping a coin.

The reason was the influence that CAUSED us to choose what we did choose.

At that particular split-second in time that was the ONLY choice we could have made based on the reason why we preferred that choice the MOST.

"therefore contrary choice or “free" will not only does not exist but cannot exist."

[citizenzen]

Originally Posted by Gatekeeper

Only in the sense that He gave us the free will to choose self (Lust) over His Spirit (Love). Evil and suffering exists (In my mind) so we might one day choose love over lust on our own vocation.

A far more "reasonable" view—in my opinion. How do we ever learn if we aren't the ones actually doing the choosing?

Why would God create us, just to manipulate us and then punish us when He makes us transgress? That just doesn't make any sense at all.

But a God that creates the conditions for life and then steps back and lets life find its own way is a deity that I could get behind... if it weren't for my overriding desire to not believe in deities.