Things have Changed

[Quahom1]

for the rest of you who wonder WTF? I said there are those who can speak to the masses, and then there are those who see an opportunity during a conversation, that is right, to speak of God...I think, no actually I know, this is right on occasion. Cage is moving in the right direction.

If you find my suggestion to be in error, please have the courtesy to PM me with concerns.

I'd be much obliged.

v/r

Q

"And why do you not judge for yourselves what is right? 58) As you go with your accuser before the magistrate, make an effort to settle with him on the way, lest he drag you to the judge, and the judge hand you over to the officer, and the officer put you in prison. 59) I tell you, you will never get out till you have paid the very last copper."

[lunamoth]

Hey Q, Seemed like an appropriate direction to me.

luna

[kenod]

Sometimes personal experiences can be just as helpful as heaps of theology. If you are seeking the truth about the resurrection, I recommend you read the Bible and ask God to show you … and also do some gardening!

Every year I plant some Lachenalia bulbs (“little soldiers”) that I got from a dear friend who passed away. After they have finished flowering I pull up the bulbs and throw then into my shed where they lay all brown and scaly for another six months, looking completely dead. Come autumn I plant them out again and in spring they flower so gaily I just have to say “Praise the Lord, one day my dear friend will rise again”.



Like Job of old, I can say

For I know that my redeemer liveth,
and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
And though after my skin worms destroy this body,
yet in my flesh shall I see God:
Job 19:25-26

God speaks through nature ... we just need to listen.

[Thomas]

Hi Cage -

For the time being, I fail to see truth in a literal ressurection.

Worry not. There was a time when I didn't see it. My namesake failed to see it also (the disciple Thomas has been likened to the reasoning intellect if we get into apostolic anthropology) - and he had less of an excuse than either of us! The point is, Jesus did not appear and say "After everything you have seen and heard? After everything I said to you? You are a complete ... "

No. he utilised Thomas - all those who appear in Scripture are called to a role greater than themselves (how can they not) and the destiny of humanity - of the Cosmos - turns on those moments - which is why Thomas was not there the first time Jesus appeared in the 'upper room' (and we could walk a long mile on that symbology) - did he not know that Thomas would be out? I very much doubt it.

So Thomas enables Jesus to say "blessed are those who have not seen, and yet believe".

And it allowed Thomas to say "My Lord, and my God!"

And if we allow Him, the Spirit will utilise us, despite our doubts and fears.

+++

There are many things in the Bible I have a hard time with, Thomas, and I guess that's just part of my own personal journey.

Yes.

In the end, I feel that Love is the driving force behind the Christian walk.

It's all there is.

Although, it was fear that gave me the desire to be saved.

If I may put words in your mouth, people misread the 'fear of God' thing. We don't fear God, we fear not being loved by Him - and for many, very many, it is this fear of not being loved, this doubt, that keeps God at arm's length.

A failure to commit - through fear of rejection.

I have much to work on in this department, but I don't think God, or Jesus will allow me to do all the work on my own. I may never come to believe in a literal ressurection, but in my mind, that will not/should not stand in the way of Jesus coming into my life.

Cage - Dare I say I don't think you don't believe ... I think you believe more than you know ... I think you believe more than you care to admit ... what you can't do is explain to yourself why you believe!

Welcome to the world of theology - as St Anselm defined it - 'faith seeking understanding.'

The Spirit is with you, even now.

+++

I am touched by his teachings, his sacrifice, and his message. I desire to follow him, and I believe he will honor my desire for forgiveness. Even w/o fully believing in the literal ressurection.

There is a difference between 'cannot' and 'will not' - Jesus never denies those who 'cannot' - that's what His healing miracles testify - only those who 'will not', and only because that is the just and merciful response to those who deny Him.

(The Spirit works with the 'cannot', gradually working it loose ...)

I don't think Jesus meant his sacrifice to be so exclusive.

Nor was it. The arms spread wide upon the cross embrace the whole world.

I get discouraged when I am told I cannot recieve his gift w/o first adhering to a criteria of belief that contradicts the laws of nature. The very laws I believe God himself put in place.

Whoa there! Firstly, whilst your heart beats, there's the gift, and there are, I dare say, a multitude of other little gifts that we all pass unoticed each and every moment of the day ...

... secondly nothing in Scripture 'contradicts' the laws of nature - that's duality, that's opposition. What happens is nature is referred to its higher principle, and transcended...

(doesn't Quantum science apparently 'contradict' the laws of nature?)

... people (not you) think, or rather never bother to think, that the Fathers, some among the greatest philosophers who ever lived, did not bother to question any of these things - the story of the first four centuries of Christianity is one huge Christological debate as they struggled to comprehend the meaning and implication of Revelation.

If I may wax Catholic for a moment, the adherence to doctrine, from the Catholic and Orthodox perspectives, is the refusal to reduce or rationalise the Mystery to make it fit within the bounds of human reason or man's preconception of 'what it must be like'.

If you want something to tussle with, take a look at:

http://www.theveil.net/veil/meta/bor/gnos_3.html

which begins: "If there is, in fact, a resurrection of the flesh, this is because the divine principle, which is immanent to the world in the very substance of matter, cannot but, by virtue of Its own Transcendence, tear the physical body out of the cosmic order to which it clings to manifest the very transcendence of the flesh when it has been truly indwelt by the Spirit..."

enjoy!

Do you understand where I'm coming from?

From a questing heart?

Thomas

[kenod]

Originally Posted by Cage

We understand that a man cannot be physically raised to life after three days of decay

Hi Cage,
I was wondering whether you believe miracles occurred in Jesus' ministry, and whether miracles occur today. If so, what is a miracle, and how does it occur?


Here's an interesting Scripture, quoting the words of Jesus as he spoke to a very skeptical audience

Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy,
Thy sins be forgiven thee;
or to say, Arise, and take up thy bed, and walk?
Mark 2:9

[wil]

I know the question was asked of Cage....but as usual can't help myself. I belong fully one foot in each camp. There are no miracles, and it is all a miracle.

It is all a miracle, life is incredible suspension of planets held in orbits gravity holding our water, juice or wine in a glass so we can drink it, plants growing so we can eat them, think of that first white peach of the season, a fresh mango, slurping a watermelon....a sunset....birth...sex...what isn't a miracle?

There are no miracles, it is all part of the natural way things are. With enough focused thought (prayer, faith in the amount of a mustard seed) if we decide to align ourcellves with the universe (G-d) become one with the Father (all that is) that puts us in the world but not of it, provides us access to the ethers, the building blocks of all reality, and whatever it is: moving mountains; turning water into wine, all the normal things....everything I have done you can do and more...

[9Harmony]

Originally Posted by Cage

Hi Thomas,

I respect your views, and would never try to argue my own against them. For the time being, I fail to see truth in a literal ressurection. I have my reasons, and others have their own for believing what they do. There are many things in the Bible I have a hard time with, Thomas, and I guess that's just part of my own personal journey.

In the end, I feel that Love is the driving force behind the Christian walk. Although, it was fear that gave me the desire to be saved. Obviously, I do not walk in perfect Love, as it is written: "Perfect Love casteth out fear"

I have much to work on in this department, but I don't think God, or Jesus will allow me to do all the work on my own. I may never come to believe in a literal ressurection, but in my mind, that will not/should not stand in the way of Jesus coming into my life.

I am touched by his teachings, his sacrifice, and his message. I desire to follow him, and I believe he will honor my desire for forgiveness. Even w/o fully believing in the literal ressurection.

I don't think Jesus meant his sacrifice to be so exclusive. Why would he? He went through great pains to bring us life, and I truly believe he welcomes all who will accept his message of forgiveness, and Love.

I get discouraged when I am told I cannot recieve his gift w/o first adhering to a criteria of belief that contradicts the laws of nature. The very laws I believe God himself put in place.

Do you understand where I'm coming from?

Hi Cage,

Your understanding of the resurrection seems to be very much in line with the Baha'i understanding, but i don't want to derail this thread. So i invite you to explore this with the Baha'i's here in the Baha'i section if you would like.

i am leaving for vacation soon, so the other Baha'i's here I'm sure would be happy to discuss this with you in my absence.

Have a great day!

-Amy

[9Harmony]

Originally Posted by wil

I know the question was asked of Cage....but as usual can't help myself. I belong fully one foot in each camp. There are no miracles, and it is all a miracle.

It is all a miracle, life is incredible suspension of planets held in orbits gravity holding our water, juice or wine in a glass so we can drink it, plants growing so we can eat them, think of that first white peach of the season, a fresh mango, slurping a watermelon....a sunset....birth...sex...what isn't a miracle?

There are no miracles, it is all part of the natural way things are. With enough focused thought (prayer, faith in the amount of a mustard seed) if we decide to align ourcellves with the universe (G-d) become one with the Father (all that is) that puts us in the world but not of it, provides us access to the ethers, the building blocks of all reality, and whatever it is: moving mountains; turning water into wine, all the normal things....everything I have done you can do and more...

i couldn't have said it better myself.

[Cage]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Time did not stand still while you were en absentia...I can assure you.

I know I'm going to have my ass royally kicked for this, but I suggest in your search, you take a look at the Liberal Christianity forum in the Spirituality and Belief forum. There is a method to my madness...

You can find it: http://www.comparative-religion.com/...istianity.html

I think it will help you, in your search for what you really want and need, in the long run...

What I hope is for you to have ultimately, is a relationship with Christ, that is personal, and trusting, like I have with Him...

Godspeed.

v/r

Q

Hi Quahom1,

I spent a great deal of time in the liberal section after your suggestion, and the views presented seem much less rigid then what I am accustomed to. I'll be posting there a bit in the furure...Thank you.

Btw, that relationship thing you talked about is exactly what I want.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by kenod

Sometimes personal experiences can be just as helpful as heaps of theology. If you are seeking the truth about the resurrection, I recommend you read the Bible and ask God to show you … and also do some gardening!

Every year I plant some Lachenalia bulbs (“little soldiers”) that I got from a dear friend who passed away. After they have finished flowering I pull up the bulbs and throw then into my shed where they lay all brown and scaly for another six months, looking completely dead. Come autumn I plant them out again and in spring they flower so gaily I just have to say “Praise the Lord, one day my dear friend will rise again”.




Like Job of old, I can say

For I know that my redeemer liveth,
and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
And though after my skin worms destroy this body,
yet in my flesh shall I see God:
Job 19:25-26

God speaks through nature ... we just need to listen.

To everything there is a season...even for "little soldiers"...

v/r

Q

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Cage

Hi Quahom1,

I spent a great deal of time in the liberal section after your suggestion, and the views presented seem much less rigid then what I am accustomed to. I'll be posting there a bit in the furure...Thank you.

Btw, that relationship thing you talked about is exactly what I want.

First step is the hardest...after that, one learns to walk and then to run...

v/r

Q

[Cage]

Originally Posted by Thomas

Hi Cage -

Worry not. There was a time when I didn't see it. My namesake failed to see it also (the disciple Thomas has been likened to the reasoning intellect if we get into apostolic anthropology) - and he had less of an excuse than either of us! The point is, Jesus did not appear and say "After everything you have seen and heard? After everything I said to you? You are a complete ... "

No. he utilised Thomas - all those who appear in Scripture are called to a role greater than themselves (how can they not) and the destiny of humanity - of the Cosmos - turns on those moments - which is why Thomas was not there the first time Jesus appeared in the 'upper room' (and we could walk a long mile on that symbology) - did he not know that Thomas would be out? I very much doubt it.

So Thomas enables Jesus to say "blessed are those who have not seen, and yet believe".

And it allowed Thomas to say "My Lord, and my God!"

And if we allow Him, the Spirit will utilise us, despite our doubts and fears.

+++

What if I never see it? God must be doing something in me, though, as I have come a long way from where I was before. Many doubts have been erased, and I have come to actually want a relashionship with the master...not just a desire to follow him.

If I may put words in your mouth, people misread the 'fear of God' thing. We don't fear God, we fear not being loved by Him - and for many, very many, it is this fear of not being loved, this doubt, that keeps God at arm's length.

A failure to commit - through fear of rejection.

Although, I don't disagree with this, my fear consisted of nothing more than the fear of not beieng able to handle punishment, and the realization of how much I do need Jesus' saving grace.

Cage - Dare I say I don't think you don't believe ... I think you believe more than you know ... I think you believe more than you care to admit ... what you can't do is explain to yourself why you believe!

Welcome to the world of theology - as St Anselm defined it - 'faith seeking understanding.'

The Spirit is with you, even now.

+++

I guess I'm trying to decide how much I do believe, and trying to work out in my own mind 'why' I believe what I do. I can't say that I believe in a literal ressurection with all my heart, nor can I say that I deny it fully, either. Self realization is what I'm having trouble with, I think? I simply don't know exactly where I stand.

There is a difference between 'cannot' and 'will not' - Jesus never denies those who 'cannot' - that's what His healing miracles testify - only those who 'will not', and only because that is the just and merciful response to those who deny Him.

(The Spirit works with the 'cannot', gradually working it loose ...)

I'm willing, only I resist a bit because of my mind. I don't deny Jesus at all, I only resist some of the claims because I find them hard to believe.

I don't think Jesus meant his sacrifice to be so exclusive.

Nor was it. The arms spread wide upon the cross embrace the whole world.

Yes, this it what I think also, but many Christians put salvation in a nicly wrapped box, and tell you that you can only get it, if you first meet some requirements. i.e believing in some things that, im my mind, defy nature.

Whoa there! Firstly, whilst your heart beats, there's the gift, and there are, I dare say, a multitude of other little gifts that we all pass unoticed each and every moment of the day ...

... secondly nothing in Scripture 'contradicts' the laws of nature - that's duality, that's opposition. What happens is nature is referred to its higher principle, and transcended...

(doesn't Quantum science apparently 'contradict' the laws of nature?)

Sure we have the gift of life, and for that I am thankful...

Why is duality a bad thing? It is, in my mind, a valid concept. Everything has an opposite, but the opposites are actually one and the same thing, varying only in degree of vibration. At least, this is what I read somewhere....Hermetic principle, perhaps? (polarity)

As for quantum science (physics) Is that the same? Well, I saw the movie "What The Bleep Do We Know". The most I took from that movie is the idea that the universe is intelligent. Other than that, I know very little about this field of study.

... people (not you) think, or rather never bother to think, that the Fathers, some among the greatest philosophers who ever lived, did not bother to question any of these things - the story of the first four centuries of Christianity is one huge Christological debate as they struggled to comprehend the meaning and implication of Revelation.

If I may wax Catholic for a moment, the adherence to doctrine, from the Catholic and Orthodox perspectives, is the refusal to reduce or rationalise the Mystery to make it fit within the bounds of human reason or man's preconception of 'what it must be like'.

If you want something to tussle with, take a look at:

http://www.theveil.net/veil/meta/bor/gnos_3.html

which begins: "If there is, in fact, a resurrection of the flesh, this is because the divine principle, which is immanent to the world in the very substance of matter, cannot but, by virtue of Its own Transcendence, tear the physical body out of the cosmic order to which it clings to manifest the very transcendence of the flesh when it has been truly indwelt by the Spirit..."

enjoy!

I'm searching, Thomas. I haven't checked the link yet, but I will.

Thanks, and much Love,

[Cage]

Originally Posted by kenod

Hi Cage,
I was wondering whether you believe miracles occurred in Jesus' ministry, and whether miracles occur today. If so, what is a miracle, and how does it occur?


Here's an interesting Scripture, quoting the words of Jesus as he spoke to a very skeptical audience

Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy,
Thy sins be forgiven thee;
or to say, Arise, and take up thy bed, and walk?
Mark 2:9

I'm not sure what I believe to tell the truth. I'm working on it, though...

[Cage]

Originally Posted by 9Harmony

Hi Cage,

Your understanding of the resurrection seems to be very much in line with the Baha'i understanding, but i don't want to derail this thread. So i invite you to explore this with the Baha'i's here in the Baha'i section if you would like.

i am leaving for vacation soon, so the other Baha'i's here I'm sure would be happy to discuss this with you in my absence.

Have a great day!

-Amy

Thanks, Amy,

I'll certainly check it out.

Much Love,

[Cage]

Originally Posted by wil

I know the question was asked of Cage....but as usual can't help myself. I belong fully one foot in each camp. There are no miracles, and it is all a miracle.

It is all a miracle, life is incredible suspension of planets held in orbits gravity holding our water, juice or wine in a glass so we can drink it, plants growing so we can eat them, think of that first white peach of the season, a fresh mango, slurping a watermelon....a sunset....birth...sex...what isn't a miracle?

There are no miracles, it is all part of the natural way things are. With enough focused thought (prayer, faith in the amount of a mustard seed) if we decide to align ourcellves with the universe (G-d) become one with the Father (all that is) that puts us in the world but not of it, provides us access to the ethers, the building blocks of all reality, and whatever it is: moving mountains; turning water into wine, all the normal things....everything I have done you can do and more...

I like the way you think.