This is how Islam will end....

[c0de]

What do you get when you take out all faith from Islam and replace it with a cold rational materialism? You get a new brand of "Muslim" who calls himself a "Quran Aloner".... Granted not all of them are the same, and many are not as extreme as others, but one thing is certain: these are the people who will totally change the Islamic landscape within a century. This much is clear to me.

This might sound like dialectics (its not) but a counterpart to the rightist Taliban has arisen in the extreme secular left. These are the people who will take over the Muslim world (FOX News was wrong, it won't be Osama bin Laden). These "Quran Aloners" are a very small and fragmented minority today, mostly in the middle to upper classes. But they contain all the characteristics that a future mainstream movement needs to have and become the dominant Muslim denomination of the future. And all the work that the radical conservative Muslims are doing is directly contributing to their rise.

Their principles are diverse, but they have a few common beliefs. Almost all of them reject the "5 prayers" scheme. Some only accept 3, some reject the prayer totally, saying it was never meant to be an actual ritual. They also reject the significance of Mecca, and refuse to face it. Some of them believe that everything that takes place in Mecca is pagan idolatry.

These beliefs may sound very far fetched and crazy to the mainstream Muslims today, but it is very clear to me that that these beliefs will become the mainstream views within the Muslim ummah. It happened with Rome, with Christianity, it happened again with the Reformation. And the same will happen in the Muslim world... It is the same pattern with every new religion. If it attracts the middle-to-upper classes at first, you can bet it will keep expanding until it is the dominant force. There are no statistics, but I bet they are adding at least 40% new members per decade, just as the LDS Church. Such a growth, while it seems small at first, is exponential.

I don't really have much in common with mainstream Muslim sects either.. most of the time I am disagreeing with their beliefs... but this group of "Quran Aloners".... this is something completely different. Some of these people can hardly be considered Muslims at all, as some of them don't even believe in the finality of revelation, and feel that the Quran is "incomplete"... In my book, these people are much more dangerous then the Taliban, because their beliefs are much more attractive for the majority. Theirs will be a silent revolution, without weapons, without beheadings... And all the conservative Wahabi Taliban types are only making it easier for them, because it is -Islam- which is being put on the chopping block because of their actions.

... This is inevitable. There is no way to stop this... Many Muslims will convert to their side in the coming decades. Anyone in fact who values a self-negating "rationality" above faith will join their ranks. Maybe another war, or two, is all that is needed for a major shift in ideology to take place.. and when the time comes, these people will be waiting to step up and offer their "solution": a complete reformation of Islam, stripped of all faith... Setting the stage for a slow evaporation and drift towards a total materialistic atheism in the Muslim world....

I say this is inevitable, because this time, unlike the time of the Mutazillites, there are no core battallions left in the Muslim world to hold back this tide of skepticism... Too much faith has eroded over the centuries... There are not going to be any more al-Thalabis or al-Ghazalis, this time... they will win.

[Faithfulservant]

So there are cults in Islam as well.. I didnt know that.

[17th Angel]

Here we go with the cults again.... :/

Of course Islam has it's sects/denominations/seperate lil groups.... Man never agrees on anything lol even when they are in the "same" group.....

[Tao_Equus]

Sounds like it would be a move in a positive direction to me. But where is the evidence?

[Faithfulservant]

Originally Posted by Alex P

Here we go with the cults again.... :/

Of course Islam has it's sects/denominations/seperate lil groups.... Man never agrees on anything lol even when they are in the "same" group.....

Its just a word..

btw ALEX if thats you in your avatar you're a hottie!

[c0de]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

But where is the evidence?

No statistics to back up this hypothesis so far... It seems the only polling that happens in Muslim countries seems to be asking "what are your views of the US?" or "Do you support Osama?"

[nativeastral]

yes the more education parity for women, increased communication via the internet, coupled with the younger, academic muslims coming into positions of influence within Islam, is bound to affect the ummah 'worldview' towards increased secularisation/westernisation- you can see this simply in the bill posters along streets portraying the sexuality of women [however less overt than in the west],this is overt shirk no?.

Capitalism is now the hegemony in the world economic machinery and is necessarily followed by the 'l want generation'. There are restrictions placed on muslims outwith an Islamic majority country which lives by sharia law, making it difficult or inconvenient to practice the 5 pillars and to integrate sufficiently in the host country which contributes to a slackening off, especially for those separated from immediate family.

Perhaps as you say c0de it is almost inevitable to get extremes in either direction from the traditional mainstream way and as l've mentioned before Islam is newer than Judaism and christianlty which has gone through the schisms and extreme rationalism so maybe it is an evolutionary process with religions.

Can l bring up mysticism again? this is more personal and therefore a more hidden 'variable' and a move towards a spirituality that does not depend on orthopraxy nor orthodoxy and another example of the way many christians and jews have moved towards in the 21st century.

[dailogue is the best]

Originally Posted by c0de

What do you get when you take out all faith from Islam and replace it with a cold rational materialism? You get a new brand of "Muslim" who calls himself a "Quran Aloner".... Granted not all of them are the same, and many are not as extreme as others, but one thing is certain: these are the people who will totally change the Islamic landscape within a century. This much is clear to me.

I say this is inevitable, because this time, unlike the time of the Mutazillites, there are no core battallions left in the Muslim world to hold back this tide of skepticism... Too much faith has eroded over the centuries... There are not going to be any more al-Thalabis or al-Ghazalis, this time... they will win.

Dont worry, brother. I assure they will never ever win.

My confidence is not based just on emotion. It is based on my certainty in God's Word. God says: "[15:9] Absolutely, we have revealed the reminder, and, absolutely, we will preserve it."

Keep in my mind that the prophet's sayings are part and parcel from the Quran as God clearly and plainly says:

"[33:36]It is not for a believer, man or woman, when Allah AND His Messenger have decreed a matter that they should have any option in their decision. And whoever disobeys Allah AND His Messenger, he has indeed strayed into a plain error"

"But no, by the Lord, they can have no (real) Faith, until they make thee (O Muhammad) judge in all disputes between them, and find in their souls no resistance against Thy decisions, but accept them with the fullest conviction." [Qur’aan 4:65]

"..If ye differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger, if ye do believe in Allah and the Last Day: That is best, and most suitable for final determination. [Holy Qur'an 4:59]


The prophet Muhammed pbuh even predicted the coming of some people who will only depend on the Quran, and along the Islamic history, there were many sects that tried to do, and which ended up in its nests.

Brother, for me, this can never ever take place. But, I dont hide on you. I see the appearance of such sects as a warning of something wrong, and how many wrong things are taking place, in the Islamic world. Also, I see the positive side: unfortunately most Muslims are far from practising the teachings of Islam,and especially the prophet's sunnah, hence the apppearance of such sects revive in Muslims their love for their prophet and wakens them up from their ignoring the path of their prophet Muhammed pbuh.

The Quranists exploit the ignorance of the Muslim youth, and the cultural isolation they are living in to shake their confidence in the prophet's sunnah. But, what a non-attainable goal?! What they are doing will work just towards one goal: wakening the Muslim scientists to do their role appropraitely, and wakening the Muslim youth and make them more attached to their prophet Muhammed pbuh..

By the way, I see how the Islamic world is being ruled, and I dont wonder the appearance of such sects, and even satan worshippers sects. The proverb goes on saying: you reap, what you sow...

i believe that ideas, like any physical being, dont accept emptiness and void. So, either you fill with ideas of your own, or it will be filled with others' ideas..

Anyway, I dont see the appearance of such sects as a dangerous phenomenon for I believe that it is the truth that always remains.

What society authorities shouldnt forget is to play their role effectively. Once, they give up this mission, a disquilibrium is brought.

The solution is teach, teach, and teach, as our prophet is the best teacher, and let our youth choose for themselves as the truth shines the best.


Rawafid, khawarij and many other sects along the Islamic history which tried to take the surface of the Quran and interpret their own ways had died in their nests.

They will never win, c0de. I assure you.

[dailogue is the best]

Originally Posted by nativeastral

yes the more education parity for women, increased communication via the internet, coupled with the younger, academic muslims coming into positions of influence within Islam, is bound to affect the ummah 'worldview' towards increased secularisation/westernisation- you can see this simply in the bill posters along streets portraying the sexuality of women [however less overt than in the west],this is overt shirk no?.

Unfortunately, nativeastral, the Islamic World has taken just the peels of democracy..The sexuality of women: what liberation, equality and democracy!!!!!!


By the way, nativeastral, there is no link AT ALL between secularisation/westernisation and demcracy and development. Not an inch, brother.

Japan is very developed country. Yet, she didnt skin hersel from her spiritual heritage to achieve democracy and development. In other words, she didnt "secular" heself, and she didnt "western" herself...

The complex of the Islamic world is "the complex of the defeated" as satated by the great sociologist scholar Ibn Khaldon. Ibn khaldon stated that the defeated always suffer from a an inferioritt complex towards the winner/victorious. The defeated always feel the superiority in the winner, and hence tries to immitate him.

Actually, that's what the Islamic world is actually suffering from.

It was plot that get Muslims away from the source that they can never ever win without it: Islam.

What I want to say,nativeastral, is that one cant win witout a full cultural unity. And is the right lesson to be deduced frm Japan and China. They develop because they preserve their cultural unity...

How it comes that I am an Arabic Muslim and speak Frenc or English most of the time, wear like Westerners, eat like them, and not think like them? It would be a shiziphronic personality...

Normally, it is my principles, my dogmas that rule my life. If I think in a different ways, and behave in another different way. Then, tell me, how can I really develop?! It seems that the right solution in this situation is one of the two: either to give up my principles and dogmas, or to give up imitation others...

Because of their agenda, the West prefers the first solution. It is mainly a political, economical selfish agenda. It has nothing to do with spreading democracy and justice. It has to do with racism, and eradicating others' right to be different and hold to their culture..

That is the right globalization/westernization the West is spreading, and that's why people all over the world will resist and refuse. God created us different, with different languages and cultures, why do they want us to be like them?!! Why do they fight our right in preserving our culture?!!

Perhaps as you say c0de it is almost inevitable to get extremes in either direction from the traditional mainstream way and as l've mentioned before Islam is newer than Judaism and christianlty which has gone through the schisms and extreme rationalism so maybe it is an evolutionary process with religions.

Well, nativeastral, Islam is never gonna change. I assure you. God promises to preserve the Quran, and hence Islam can never be changed.

What happened with Judaism and Christianity, brother, is that the Torah and the Bible had been corrupted. Hence, it was natural for them to lose the weight of truth and appeal.

I beg the pardon of our Jewish and Christian brothers and sisters for saying that. The prophet Jesus pbuh was sent to the Jewish to correct their coruppted message as it is stated in the Bible. The prophet Muhammed pbuh came to play the same role. He came to show the distortions in the Torah and the Bible. He came with the same message that the prophets Moses and Jesus peace be upon them brought.

And because the prophet Muhammed pbuh is the seal prophet, God promises to preserve the Quran from any change. This firm belief, nativeastarl, inside Muslims is very enough for them to keep very committed to their religion, and preserve it as the same as their prophet Muhammed pbuh kept for them.

Can l bring up mysticism again? this is more personal and therefore a more hidden 'variable' and a move towards a spirituality that does not depend on orthopraxy nor orthodoxy and another example of the way many christians and jews have moved towards in the 21st century.

Wow! MahAllah! I like mysticism. Let me say that the core of any religion should be love. Otherwise, the worship become like boring, meaningless rituals..

A true relation with God should depen on both mind (science) and heart (mysticism).

God says, addressing His servants' hearts:[82:6] O you human being, what diverted you from your Lord Most Honorable?
Then, He says, addressing their minds: [82:7] The One who created you, designed you, and perfected you.

[17th Angel]

Originally Posted by Faithfulservant

Its just a word..

Ok ok... Sorry, just you know! lol Sorry say nay more!!!

Originally Posted by Faithfulservant

btw ALEX if thats you in your avatar you're a hottie!

hehe yeah, thats me!

*shakes his head and 'tut tut tuts' points to sign outside his cage*

"Please don't feed the ego"

[nativeastral]

Originally Posted by dailogue is the best

Unfortunately, nativeastral, the Islamic World has taken just the peels of democracy..The sexuality of women: what liberation, equality and democracy!!!!!!

--------> so if you are a male you will continue the traditions set out in your islamic culture? [btw islam is very diverse for eg in the balkans there's a lot of alcoholic muslims!ie more of an ethnicity than religion].
You may think peels are impenetrable but there are few covers that are so, most are porous and permutative. Are all muslim countries in dar al islam theocracies?

By the way, nativeastral, there is no link AT ALL between secularisation/westernisation and demcracy and development. Not an inch, brother.
------> l would beg to differ

Japan is very developed country. Yet, she didnt skin hersel from her spiritual heritage to achieve democracy and development. In other words, she didnt "secular" heself, and she didnt "western" herself...

---------> agreed Japan [mainly because it is an island] has maintained its culture, yet which paradoxically sits side by side with an americanism probably more american than america!

The complex of the Islamic world is "the complex of the defeated" as satated by the great sociologist scholar Ibn Khaldon. Ibn khaldon stated that the defeated always suffer from a an inferioritt complex towards the winner/victorious. The defeated always feel the superiority in the winner, and hence tries to immitate him.

Actually, that's what the Islamic world is actually suffering from.

It was plot that get Muslims away from the source that they can never ever win without it: Islam.

-------> l agree the 'defeated' is a complex that can 'overcompensate'. Look at the rastafarians and their need to unearth their integrity and heritage after slavedom by putting Haile Selasssie on a pedestal and they knew the O.T. inside out compared to their past masters.

What I want to say,nativeastral, is that one cant win witout a full cultural unity. And is the right lesson to be deduced frm Japan and China. They develop because they preserve their cultural unity...

-----> yeh despite communism's previous attempt to eradicate China's animistic/spirit/tao religions and their atrocious behaviour towards Tibet, all in the name of 'cultural unity'?

How it comes that I am an Arabic Muslim and speak Frenc or English most of the time, wear like Westerners, eat like them, and not think like them? It would be a shiziphronic personality...

-----> yes you have already been accultured by French colonialism, was there any benefit there to the country? Humans are adaptable but if the country is an islamic state then it is easy to maintain that. Its like if a British Sikh goes to the Punjab for the first time then they would realise how different they are from Sikhs there, and how 'british' they really are. Have you been to Saudi Arabia?

Normally, it is my principles, my dogmas that rule my life. If I think in a different ways, and behave in another different way. Then, tell me, how can I really develop?! It seems that the right solution in this situation is one of the two: either to give up my principles and dogmas, or to give up imitation others...

-----> no be true to you and your faith as it is conjoined and be thankful you are free to do so.

Because of their agenda, the West prefers the first solution. It is mainly a political, economical selfish agenda. It has nothing to do with spreading democracy and justice. It has to do with racism, and eradicating others' right to be different and hold to their culture..

-----> you are generalising that the west are 'out to get you' but yes capitalism is exploitive, the fat cats at the top are only interested in profit, even in Islam.

That is the right globalization/westernization the West is spreading, and that's why people all over the world will resist and refuse. God created us different, with different languages and cultures, why do they want us to be like them?!! Why do they fight our right in preserving our culture?!!

----> checked out the new legislation in Afghanistan concerning women's obligations to men. Is it fair, is it right? If you don't speak out someone else will but l don't believe in warfare, only diplomacy.


Well, nativeastral, Islam is never gonna change. I assure you. God promises to preserve the Quran, and hence Islam can never be changed.

----> all religions think they are immutable and eternal truths and the underlying message for mankind may be so, but without all the man made strictures from another context, humans invariably break out, if not you then your children or their children...rebels are born every minute.

What happened with Judaism and Christianity, brother, is that the Torah and the Bible had been corrupted. Hence, it was natural for them to lose the weight of truth and appeal.

----> there are lots of gays in muslim land who have had to reinterpret the Quran for their own sakes yet still believers otherwise they feel rejected by their maker.

I beg the pardon of our Jewish and Christian brothers and sisters for saying that. The prophet Jesus pbuh was sent to the Jewish to correct their coruppted message as it is stated in the Bible. The prophet Muhammed pbuh came to play the same role. He came to show the distortions in the Torah and the Bible. He came with the same message that the prophets Moses and Jesus peace be upon them brought.

-----> yes you would think by now the Abrahamic brothers could kiss and make up for the sake of their father/allah/abba.

And because the prophet Muhammed pbuh is the seal prophet, God promises to preserve the Quran from any change. This firm belief, nativeastarl, inside Muslims is very enough for them to keep very committed to their religion, and preserve it as the same as their prophet Muhammed pbuh kept for them.

----> yes by maintaining the arabic that has helped preserve the literal translation but now there are other translations and muslims all over the world who have absorbed religious beliefs/practices may be considered more 'mongrel' than wahhabism; are marabouts [shrines] acceptable according to the Quran?

Wow! MahAllah! I like mysticism. Let me say that the core of any religion should be love. Otherwise, the worship become like boring, meaningless rituals..

A true relation with God should depen on both mind (science) and heart (mysticism).

God says, addressing His servants' hearts:[82:6] O you human being, what diverted you from your Lord Most Honorable?
Then, He says, addressing their minds: [82:7] The One who created you, designed you, and perfected you.

peace brother

[c0de]

Native + DIB

@ Native

I honestly feel that the "mysticism" that is presented as "sufism" would be rejected by mainline sufis. One of my friends is an orthodox Sufi and he hardly even considers the type of pop-religious sufism presented today as Islam.

I also share your idea that religions do tend to go through stages. It seems that Islam has fallen into many of the same traps that the Jews and Christians faced along their way. In fact, Islam is just as old as Christianity was at this point when the Reformation happened. Not that I have anything against the Reformation, their concerns were legitimate, just as the concerns people have against religious institutions of Islam today are legitimate... but as I said, when these "reformations" happen, the results are not what the likes of Luther and Calvin intend, but fall much in line with those who are totally secular...

Its the second law of thermodynamics... entropy always increases... no matter what.



@ DIB

I hope that I am wrong, but unfortunately sister I do not share your optimism. I just dont see any hope for any revival. Our ummah has fallen, so far... You would need another Prophet to ressurrect this society... I know you believe Jesus PBUH is going to come back for exactly this purpose, but I don't.

Actually, to tell you the honest truth, I dont think we even deserve any revival at this stage... Ibn Khaldun was right... We were defeated (because we lost our way), and the defeated only want to emulate the victors... And that is all the Muslims have been trying to do. Even though they hate this change that has been thrust upon them (most of the world hates it) but they are just too weak to resist...

[GlorytoGod]

I thought u were a quran only muslim ?

and anyway reform for Islam away from legalism can only be a good thing

[Saltmeister]

Originally Posted by Alex P

hehe yeah, thats me!

"Please don't feed the ego"

LOL Casanova, it seems that all the girls want you. I bet even FS is willing to ditch her hubby just so she can have you.

I'd like to know what the great secret is that makes you so . . . you know. You must be some master photographer to have chosen just the right camera angle.

It's like a male version of Muslimwoman's avatar one or two years ago. A woman with smouldering eyes wearing a hijab.

Originally Posted by Alex P

*shakes his head and 'tut tut tuts' points to sign outside his cage*

What's up? Got a wife already? Did she put you in there? You gotta fight back!

Don't worry. I'm sure the loads of women here will want to come to your rescue and set you free.

[shawn]

Well if it goes I hope it is with a whimper and not a bang.

Any of these religions which use the whip of hell and the reward of heaven IMHO can and should be disbanded for fraud.