Thomas: Did the sun stop moving?

[Nick the Pilot]

Thomas: Did the sun stop moving?

[Thomas]

Hi Nick —

Before we move on to secondary issues, we should resolve your initial premise, for the benefit of my fellow Christians and indeed all here:

The premise (with reference to Catholicism) was:

Originally Posted by Nick the Pilot

Let's pretend a Catholic Bishop suddenly denounced the idea that sun stopped in the sky. What would happen? I firmly believe the Bishop would be in big trouble. He (no she possible) would be told he has to toe the sun-stopping line or else.

By moving on, can I take your silence on my response to the assertion you made as an admission of error?

Thomas

[Nick the Pilot]

Thomas, you wish to discuss your response to my comment, and why I am silent regarding your response. Let's take a look. Your response was,

"You are now about to commence on an exercise to try and ridicule my faith..."

--> I felt your response deserved silence. I still do. I am only too happy to clear up any misunderstanding you have on my silence to your response.

---

Did the sun stop moving?

[Thomas]

Hi Nick —

Originally Posted by Nick the Pilot

Thomas, you wish to discuss your response to my comment, and why I am silent regarding your response. Let's take a look. Your response was,

"You are now about to commence on an exercise to try and ridicule my faith..."

--> I felt your response deserved silence. I still do.

OK. I can understand that. I am sorry you feel that way.

Let me clarify the question: Do you accept your premise was wrong?

Thomas

[Nick the Pilot]

Respect for each other's beliefs is the basis of our discussions. Without that, no discussion is possible. Since you have proclaimed my premise disrespectful, discussion of that premise now ends.

Do not worry, there are other premises.

Did the sun stop moving?

[Thomas]

OK.

Let us say then that I stand corrected on that point — you were not intending to ridicule my faith.

Hopefully we can now put that aside.

I only persist because the question you ask can be approached a number of ways, and this will help me determine the context in which I answer the question.

So, for my benefit, do you accept the premise was wrong?

Thomas

[Nick the Pilot]

Your insult of my premise is serious. It cannot be "corrected". The insult to the premise stops the discussion of the premise.


Did the sun stop moving?

[Francis king]

yes, the sun stopped moving, for those with faith to see such things...

[Thomas]

Nick —

You have laid equally serious offences against my faith in the past, but I have for the sake of the wider discussion I have forgiven them, and moved on, forgiveness is central to my faith, after all.

If you cannot forgive and move on, then I believe the discussion cannot logically proceed — indeed if as you say "the insult to the premise stops the discussion of the premise" — then it stops any discussion of matters subsequent to the premise.

What matters here is not whether or not the sun stopped moving — in Catholicism we are not obliged to accept the text as literally true — but rather whether or not you are able to move ... if not, as your line of reasoning in the current discussion suggests, then I refer to our prior discussions of Aquinas:

"metaphysics, can dispute with one who denies its principles, if only the opponent will make some concession; but if he concede nothing, it can have no dispute with him, though it can answer his objections."

In short, I can answer your question — a secondary premise — but this will have no bearing on the prior premise, and your perception of insult therefrom, so logically it's rather a pointless process.

In all this, if I may for a moment address my Christian and other friends who follow these disputes, I am continually conscious of, and drawing attention to, the principle of context, which is an a priori determinant within which any dialogue (and indeed any text) has its place.

Thomas

[Thomas]

Hi Francis —

Originally Posted by Francis king

yes, the sun stopped moving, for those with faith to see such things...

Indeed, in the lives of faith across the globe there are stories of divine intervention in the outcome of military affairs in which they become embroiled (the text of Nick's question concerns the military conquests of the Jews).

A few examples spring immediately to mind:
There are many instances in the Jewish histories (Josue 10 is just one);
There is Constantine's vision of the Cross before the gates of Rome;
The Angel of Mons in 1914;
The kamikaze ('Divine Wind') that destroyed the Mongol fleet off the coast of Japan in the thirteenth century;
The storms that destroyed more ships than the navy when the Spanish Armada set course for Elizabethan England (an attribution claimed by the Wiccan movement);
The Channel storms in 1940/1 that would have played considerable havoc in the German invasion fleet, had Operation Sealion gone forward (again claimed by English Wiccans);
The calming of the storm that would have necessitated the cancellation of Operation Overlord in June, 1944 (ditto).

And I am sure that every soldier, sailor and airman of faith has a personal story along the same lines.

Thomas

[Nick the Pilot]

Thomas,

I think you said you believe the sun stopped moving. Thanks for clearing that up.

[Thomas]

Sigh ... Hi Nick,

Originally Posted by Nick the Pilot

Thomas,
I think you said you believe the sun stopped moving. Thanks for clearing that up.

D'you know I am coming to the conclusion that if I should want you to know anything of what I believe with any certainty, I should say the opposite of what I mean?

Be that as it may, it would be remiss of me not to draw your attention to the fact that you have made a wrong assumption.

For Francis and anyone following this discussion, I hope you know by now that I am not given to making overtly-simplistic and unqualified statements.

If anyone is interested there's a couple of interesting socio-archeological notes about the text in question, and as I put forward in my original response to the erroneous premise of the freedom of its interpretation being forbidden, I can precis the Catholic position regarding textual analysis as a whole.

Thomas

[Nick the Pilot]

Thomas, you said,

"...you have made a wrong assumption."

--> Ah, you think the sun did not stop moving. Got it. I find that fascinating, as the Bible says it stopped moving.



-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Nick: "I am just reading what the Bible says."
Thomas: "Not really, if you think about it."

[Neemai]

Is it just me, or is this way off the plot somewhere? Surely this thread isn't what this forum should be about?

If someone started telling a faithful Muslim how they should interpret the Koran would we not expect some strong defence to the contrary? What's the difference in this case?

Is there a way in which we can give each other enough space to share and discuss matters without it getting like this?

[AndrewX]

I think what's happening here is clear enough. Nick tried to begin a simple, friendly discussion. He asked: "Thomas, did the sun stop moving?"

Certainly it is understandable, plenty encouraged, that others would comment, answer, offer their thoughts, etc.

However, the original question was put to Thomas, very straightforward.

So far, Nick has gotten NOTHING but the runaround from Thomas. I trust that ANYONE can clearly see this.

It is interesting, that you seem far more concerned with how your fellow Christian are PERCEIVING YOU, Thomas, than with just giving Nick a simple, straightforward answer.

Too tall an order, you say? WELL THEN, why not at least ADDRESS THE ACTUAL QUESTION NICK HAS ASKED, and let the discussion develop from there? If the answer requires you to go deeper, that's fine - and probably welcomed, by Nick! I know I would be interested to see what happens.

But so far, we've seen you dance all around the actual question, try to address other questions and issues, talk about how important it is for your observing, Christian peers to hang around and back you up and jump in any time to bail you out (? - this is what I think you're doing, at any rate) ...

And only ONE person - another Catholic, I think - has actually bothered to ANSWER the question asked of YOU, Thomas.

Now we have Neemai saying that he (?) thinks it's wrong for Nick to try and take you to task over what the Bible clearly says occurred, though, Neemai, if you will look carefully ... Thomas has YET to fully or properly address Nick's ORIGINAL, straightforward question ... unless, by chance, this most recent post is telling us NO, Thomas doesn't think the sun actually stopped moving.

Is that what we've FINALLY seen you say, Thomas? I confess - I AM CONFUSED - because with all this dancing and dodging and avoiding and attempt at FACE-SAVING you've been doing ... I can't make out what you DO or DON'T seem to think!

I mean, when Francis says YES, the faithful believe this, you say, "INDEED," Thomas. But when Nick says, "So, you DO believe this ..." - we find you berating Nick for DARING to make the OBVIOUS and LOGICAL assumption - and you tell us, NO, I do NOT think that.

MAKE UP YOUR MIND ...

Meanwhile, Nick is patient as ever, and is still just looking for that SIMPLE, straightforward response to a FIVE WORD QUESTION in the OP. If we have it, now, FINALLY, then good. More discussion MIGHT be in order ... yet I am amazed at what a person must go through in order to try and get the ball rolling.

Everyone wants to punch and poke it, scotch the thing, deflate it, reshape it, spray-paint it fifteen different colors, and NO ONE - save poor Nick - can seem to communicate, "JUST GIVE IT A PUSH, in the proper direction - which YOU feel it should roll!"

I mean, DEAR GOD, what's it take to get an honest answer?

Sure, I understand Thomas, you are afraid you'll be `taken to task' as soon as you say AUGHT. You're right, and you know it, so I can well understand your little dance.

But let's face it, hard questions will sometimes FORCE us to rethink things, and to ask ourselves, what DO we actually believe ... and WHY. Nick's helping you with that, but I kinda wonder - do you have the humility, or the ability, to admit it!

If the Sun (meaning, of course, the EARTH) did not in fact, stand still, then we might ask ourself - what did occur? And if we - for whatever reason - agree with the dead-letter, literal Bible tale ... then again, we may go on to ask, HOW do we believe such a thing, knowing what we know about GRAVITY, for starters (but of course, this is merely the tip of the iceberg).

What a pity, that no one around here wants to TALK TURKEY.

Sorry to butt in, Nick, but if you and I just wanna address the issue, since we seem to be the only ones willing to think it out, to be sensible about it, and brave enough to actually take the bull by the horns ... then hey, I'm always game.

Tell me something, do you get such resistance, and dodging, and efforts at face-saving ... from folks on the Theosophy forum? I'm really quite curious!

cheers,

~Andrew