Thought worthy of pondering... - Page 2

Quahom1 · 01-04-2007, 07:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prober

So should we keep the Sabbath, Silas?

In accordance with scripture, the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath...

17th Angel · 01-04-2007, 12:57 PM

Is god for us or for himself?? I think a way to look at this is simply...

Does your god need humans? What advantage does he get from having us?

Then compare this to;

Do humans need your god? What advantage do humans get from having your god?

So wouldn't you then see your god made humans out of love? Not because he NEEDED us... We are not even on par with him are we? He can create worlds and stars and suns and moons, conqure death and so on... What can we do, that is on any scale near that.... He can apparently save us, and if we accept him as our god, and live by his rules can be saved. Whats the point? lol... I make an ant farm (earth and humans.) I put all the lil ants upon it and try to populate it... Just for giggles. Then they start messing up the tunnels I had placed and such... Would I care? No... But if, I did... That is out of love is it not? If the ants go to ruine or mess up and what not, thats not my problem... That doesn't effect me. So I think for something of such importance to give time of day to something so small, so inferior, so insignificant.... thats love.

Dondi · 01-04-2007, 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silas

Yet, as Jesus noted about the sabbath (one of the Laws of God), "It was made for man and not man for it." Therefore, my first argument is that since God is not bound by any law and is a law unto Himself, I affairm with Jesus that the Laws are for man and not God.

But the Law is a reflection of His Holiness. Sure, the Law was made for Man, but to teach Him about God's righteousness...and our obvious inability to keep it. It is our schoolmaster to bring us to that realization and therefore to Christ. The two Laws of Summation is the highest ideal. It sums up the character of God...that God is Love. The fulfillment of the Law is enacted through the Spirit of God in our lives when we are born again of the Spirit. the Law becomes written in our hearts, in our conscience.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silas

Secondly, since God Himself is Love - in fact the hightest form of Love; not the selfish kind or self-seeking kind or needy, wanting kind of love, but instead agape, it stands evident that God's choice in loving us is not based on anything in us, but soley on His own choice to lavish His Love upon us (Jer 31:3). In other words, we didnt persuade him to love us, or merit it in anyway. Rather, He simply chooses to Love people, save people, justly punish people, etc., all for His own Glory (Isa. 48:9-11

Seems you are giving a contradiction here. On one hand you are saying that God's love is not a self-seeking love, but then you say that God chooses to love for His Own Glory. Am I missing something here?

Quote:

Third, though it is become sort of customary to say "God loves the sinner but hates their sin," that is still a meaningless distination. Why? Because there is nothing in the sinner but sin (Rom. 14:23 Isa. 64:6). And, since God hates sin and condemns because of it, and since it is an abomination for God to justify the wicked (Proverb 17:15) - namely, us, it shows that God's passion for His holiness and righteousness and for His name to be great among the universe, isnt thwarted by a need or want for loving mankind. In other words, God loves His glory more than He loves us! Lastly (and I hope this inspires you), God does love mankind! In fact, so much so that I cannot begin to understand or try to explain in words. It is not a gerneral kind of love that suggest that Christ died for everyone the same way he died for His bride (all those who would repent and believe), which incidentially some people contend for. But rather, Christ so loved the Chruch vis-a-vis, His bride, that He gave Himself for Her that she might be holy and blameless in His sight and be able to live to God's glory (Eph. 5:25-27). God's love in Christ is a covernantal love which began in eternity and will last forever.

I think the thing we need to realize is that God created us. Notice what God says about Man's creation:

"So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them...And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day." - Genesis 1:27, 31

In all the other days of creation, God just said that is was good, but when He made man, He said that it was very good. Man is the crown of His creation, created in the image of Him. Look at what Psalm 8 says:

"What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?
For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:" - Psalm 8:4-6

So it is nonsense to believe that God doesn't hold a special place in His heart for Man. He created something special. The only thing that keeps us from being who He wants us to be is our sin. That is why He loves the sinner (Man), but hates the sin. He looks at sin like it is a disease, which it is. He has pity for His creation, He loves His creation and will die for it's cure. I think it is folly to think that there is only sin in the sinner, for God sees the potential in us, if we would only be willing to be restored. His judgement isn't on the sin, but rather our refusal to be made right.

wil · 01-04-2007, 01:21 PM

Ok so we take the days of creation, and on the seventh he finished and then rested...and then we argue that those days aren't days but metaphor and are like eons...

And then we decide that the week is seven days and align this sabbath with one day of the week...Jews took Saturday, so we'll skip to SunDay, which left Islam with Friday...but we won't get into all that...but suddenly our metaphor for creation is back to one day?

So this sabbath, should we keep it holy for an eon? No that's too long, a day? But what about football? Or the golf final day? Oh this celebrating, giving time back to G-d is getting into my schedule...can't have it.

I say give it to G-d moment by moment, your sabbath and mine don't have to align.

Dondi · 01-04-2007, 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wil

Ok so we take the days of creation, and on the seventh he finished and then rested...and then we argue that those days aren't days but metaphor and are like eons...

And then we decide that the week is seven days and align this sabbath with one day of the week...Jews took Saturday, so we'll skip to SunDay, which left Islam with Friday...but we won't get into all that...but suddenly our metaphor for creation is back to one day?

So this sabbath, should we keep it holy for an eon? No that's too long, a day? But what about football? Or the golf final day? Oh this celebrating, giving time back to G-d is getting into my schedule...can't have it.

I say give it to G-d moment by moment, your sabbath and mine don't have to align.

What is the purpose of the sabboth? If it was made for man, what doth it prosper?

It was a day of rest, a reminder that God rested the seventh day. It is to re-energize our spiritual and physical energies for the work of the other days of the week. It is a time when we can set our hearts and minds toward God and remember the goodness of God.

There were also sabbaths for the lands. This was to allow the soil to be revitalized with essential nutients for growing food. If we are going to be fruitfull in our Christian life, we need this rest likewise. it matters not what day we observe it, as long as we do. IMHO.

Prober · 01-04-2007, 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

"The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath" implies that the Sabbath was made for the benefit of man, for his use, and not vice versa. Man is not the slave of the Sabbath.

So Prober...Does it matter which day is observed as Sabbath, or is any seventh day good? Like, if I start on Tuesday, then Monday would be my Sabbath. Or if I were to start my work week on Monday, then Sunday would be my Sabbath. Is that right?

Chris

I believe...

God "rested" on the seventh day of creation and asked that we do likewise to honor him as the creator. Resting on Sabbath is (or should have been) a weekly "ceremony" since the beginning of time.

This day is Saturday.

As God's example suggests, it does matter which day we keep.

I wouldn't beat anybody over the head with this. For me, it's a cool thing (once you get used to it). I look forward to turning off the TV on Friday night, having the house all clean and settled, sitting quietly reading, being with the church on Sabbath, having pot luck lunch, taking a nature walk and in general making a quiet space in my noisy week.

Sunday, of course, is for GOLF!

We should worship God every day - it's just that Sabbath is special. Yeah, it's a ceremonial thing.

wil · 01-04-2007, 07:59 PM

I got the sabbath thang....just wondering how we bounce back and forth between 'days' of creation not being days and then the sabbath being a day...one is metaphor the other is not....

Prober · 01-04-2007, 09:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wil

I got the sabbath thang....just wondering how we bounce back and forth between 'days' of creation not being days and then the sabbath being a day...one is metaphor the other is not....

Well...I believe that creation was accomplished in six literal days (and that the world is only about 6000 years old, etc.) so no problem there.

I know it may sound silly or ignorant, but I just choose to follow what God shows me and trust that he has an explanation which I'll know in his good time.

I keep an open mind, of course, and welcome other ideas...

Silas · 01-04-2007, 09:50 PM

Double post - sorry!

Silas · 01-04-2007, 09:53 PM

Dondi

But the Law is a reflection of His Holiness. Sure, the Law was made for Man, but to teach Him about God's righteousness...and our obvious inability to keep it. It is our schoolmaster to bring us to that realization and therefore to Christ. The two Laws of Summation is the highest ideal. It sums up the character of God...that God is Love. The fulfillment of the Law is enacted through the Spirit of God in our lives when we are born again of the Spirit. the Law becomes written in our hearts, in our conscience.

That was nicely said! I agree with all you said!

Seems you are giving a contradiction here. On one hand you are saying that God's love is not a self-seeking love, but then you say that God chooses to love for His Own Glory. Am I missing something here?

Yes. You're missing the point - namely if you were all glorious, all inspiring, all loving, all beauty, all wonderful, all sublime, all everything infinite and great, the most loving thing for you to do would be to get people's attention. Here, I'll let John Piper tell it in this very short audio clip. After the clip, you should have a better understanding of what I'm trying to say and should at least see to some degree, God's glory, as it is bound up in the enjoyment of His creation inasmuch that when we are fully satisfied in God, God is therefore fully Glorified in us, were He gets the glory and we the joy - best of both worlds. Please listen.

So it is nonsense to believe that God doesn't hold a special place in His heart for Man. He created something special. The only thing that keeps us from being who He wants us to be is our sin. That is why He loves the sinner (Man), but hates the sin. He looks at sin like it is a disease, which it is. He has pity for His creation, He loves His creation and will die for it's cure. I think it is folly to think that there is only sin in the sinner, for God sees the potential in us, if we would only be willing to be restored. His judgement isn't on the sin, but rather our refusal to be made right.

I think you missed my point. Yes, God does Love us with an awesome and mighty love. But again, its not due to anything in us. In the Sinner, there is nothing but sin. How can I say that? Well, note Romans 14:23...Whatever is not done in faith is sin. Couple that with Isa. 64:6..."There is none righteous and all our works are as filty menstration rags." The issue here isnt that we are sinners because we sin, but that we sin because we are sinners." Moreover, the issue is that before Christ, we have no good and all we did was sin because it was never in faith or to God's glory. Remember..."whatever you do, wether you eat or drink, do it to the glory of God." Anything less is sin and evil. This is God's holiness and perfection revealed. I know...I know, it clashes with our mind that says, "this is too high and too much" but that is what God says to us. God's choice in loving us is NOT from anything in us, but on His own choice to love us. Do not image that God looks down on sinners crying over them saying "Please choose me, I'm better than sex and parties and drugs and whatever else you like." Thats not far from, if not itself, blasphemy! God is self-satified and complete within Himself. He does all things to the praise and glory of His own name. He knows His sheep, and is satified. Lastly, according to scripture, God's judgement IS on sin! He hates it more than you hate the worse thing that is ugly and detestable to you.

Francis king · 01-05-2007, 01:10 AM

...I came for the scribes and the pharisees, but they wouldn't dance and they wouldn't follow me, I danced for the fishermen, for james and john, they came with me and the dance went on

...so dance then, whoever u will be, for I am the Lord of the dance said he, and I lead u all, wherever u may be, and I lead u all in the dance said he...

17th Angel · 01-05-2007, 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Francis king

...I came for the scribes and the pharisees, but they wouldn't dance and they wouldn't follow me, I danced for the fishermen, for james and john, they came with me and the dance went on

...so dance then, whoever u will be, for I am the Lord of the dance said he, and I lead u all, wherever u may be, and I lead u all in the dance said he...

That song makes me LARF

I was trying to aquire it to do this 'thing' on a web cam show I host... It is called "lord of the dance" right? But who sings it?

InLove · 01-05-2007, 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wil

I got the sabbath thang....just wondering how we bounce back and forth between 'days' of creation not being days and then the sabbath being a day...one is metaphor the other is not....

Perhaps the metaphor is reciprocal?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Francis king

...so dance then, whoever u will be, for I am the Lord of the dance said he, and I lead u all, wherever u may be, and I lead u all in the dance said he...

Love that tune....

InPeace,
InLove

Edited to add: We gotta stop meeting like this, Angel.

17th Angel · 01-05-2007, 12:56 PM

Heh... Why?

InLove · 01-05-2007, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

I was trying to aquire it to do this 'thing' on a web cam show I host... It is called "lord of the dance" right? But who sings it?

I have it somewhere on one of those old casette tape thingies--taped it off the radio back in the (you guessed it) the 80's. Can't remember the name of the singer at the moment. Hmmmm.....might have to see the script before I divulge any information!

InPeace,
InLove