Tibetan Buddhism

[Snoopy]

Hi,

When I have read about Tibetan Buddhism in the past I have read of the use of desire to achieve liberation and yet this would on face value seem to me like fighting fire with fire (the cause of dukkha is craving but rather than trying to eliminate craving, use craving…to eliminate itself?). Have I misunderstood? Is it a vestige from the Bon religion? The following are typical of the sorts of things one comes across…

combines elements of Hinduism and paganism including magical and mystical elements like mantras and mudras and erotic rites; especially influential in Tibet

a Buddhist doctrine that includes elements from India that are not Buddhist and elements of preexisting shamanism

magic.

an admixture of indigenous animism

I ask in the spirit of learning, not to undermine. I recently read Happiness by Matthieu Ricard, a Tibetan monk and it was an excellent book and he has been involved (like the Dalai Lama) in scientific studies into meditation; a million miles away from what I would describe as supernatural practices / beliefs. It was this book that prompted me to post this thread.

(PS I’ve skimmed the threads on Sex Magick and Tantra).

s.

[earl]

I've waited for Vaj to weigh in since that guy's the expert on vajrayana around here. But since he hasn't shown up yet, I'll spout off. I've studied Tibetan Buddhism a fair bit. It is said that its tantric system like Buddhism itself originated in the Indian region. There is debate as to whether it is entirely unrelated to Hindu tanrism, but folks like John Snelling in his book, "The Buddhist Handbook," claim it's closer to the original Hindu version than some think. the Bon religion predated the arrival of Buddhism to Tibet and was somewhat shamanistic. Traditionally, it is said that Padmasambhava who brought it to Tibet helped it take root by incorporating some aspects of its belief system into his Buddhism-i.e., turned some of their deities into "dharma protectors." As much as I see contemporary Bonpos use Buddhists notions, I tend to think that Bon was more influenced by Buddhism than vice versa. As for the stuff re "magic," sounds as if that was a comment made by someone who didn't understand its "pujas-" rituals which involve quite complicated visualizations combined with mudras and mantras. That stuff doesn't appeal to me as it seems too complicated. I also can't relate to the images they visualize, which, though some claim those are indeed are how those images appear to meditators spontaneously, I believe are cultural images, not universal ones. I do see quite a bit of value to visualization and have used principles of Tibetan Buddhist visualization practice, (albeit more simplified) with images more natural and appealing to me in my practice. As to using desires as a basis of practice, check out the practice of trekchod at
Aro - Embracing Emotions as the Path

For a very good overview of the Tibetan Buddhist approach you could check out:
Attachment
This overview even included the Tibetan Bardo teachings read at the moment of dying.
May all beings be happy, earl

[Snoopy]

Originally Posted by earl

I've waited for Vaj to weigh in since that guy's the expert on vajrayana around here. But since he hasn't shown up yet, earl

Yeah, has the guy got a life or something??!!

Anyway, thanks earl for this I shall delve into it.

s.

[earl]

Snoopy, thought I'd give you an example of how all those parts work in a typical Tibetan Buddhist puja:

White Tara Unification Sadhana

have a good one, earl

[Vajradhara]

Namaste all,

sorry for the delay in responding

Snoopy.. you have discovered the singular bit about the Vajrayana which accounts for its teachings.. that is somewhat cryptic.. let me try to explain.

Generally speaking, within the monastic environment, the lessening of desire and so forth is what is extolled, this is especially true in Theraveda monestaries. the Mahayana makes use of some of the same concepts though they place a different focus on it than does the Vajrayana.

within the paradigm of Vajrayana Buddhism, the idea is that a human being can make swifter progress along the path, hence the term Diamond Thunderbolt Vehicle, by utilizing all aspects of their being, including the seemingly negative aspects.

of course, to put those negative aspects of being to positive use requires a great deal of training and practice, but that's the essence of it.

it reflects a somewhat different approach to the whole paradigm and is not the correct Vehicle for many beings. for those that it appeals to, however, it is a powerful practice.

it's interesting to see how prominent Buddhists talk to non-Buddhist audiences and how they speak to Buddhist ones. in a lecture on Buddhisms impact on Western Culture, to a Buddhist audience, His Holiness the Dalai Lama said that he is fully expecting to see a whole new array of Thangka and Mandala work originating out of the Western Buddhist experience and was somewhat surprised that it hadn't happened yet but understood that the Dharma was, in a very real sense, still new to the West.

i mention this since i, too, have some issues with the visizulations that are recommeneded.. though i've a vivid imagination so it's not too hard

to give you another example of the Vajaryana use of negative aspects of being to positive ends, there is a whole method for generating pride and ego in the being only to have them, eventually, transmuted into Liberation.. but, until that time, the teachings seems somewhat strange! this is all part of what is called Deity Yoga which you can find in 4 distinct forms in the Tibetan Vajrayana.. though i do not know if the same can be said for the Vajrayana in other countries.

metta,

~v

[seattlegal]

I've been under the impression that Tibetan Buddhism is more about transformation than about a journey. Is that a good analogy?

[Vajradhara]

Namaste Seattlegal,

thank you for the post.

hmm.. well.. it is true, of course, that we are speaking of a transformation of the being in both a literal and figurative manner. that said, it is also taught that there is a systematic, step by step process that a being engages in to make progress on the Path of Wisdom or the Path of Compassion.

it is also somewhat difficult to seperate the philosophical underpinings from the religious teaching without a clear understanding of their point of view. within Tibetan Vajrayana Buddhism there are two, distcint, philosophical points of view to be found, the Prasangkia-Madhyamika and the Savantrika-Madhaymika which are both subschools of the overall Madhyamika philosophical tradition.

the differences in these schools is somewhat obtruse though it mostly comes down to the manner in which phenomena and noumena exist.

so.. if i may sum up a bit.. a beings is transformed on the journey along the Path of Liberation until such a time as these expedient means are no longer useful.

metta,

~v

[Francis king]

am just marking this with a post so I can come back to it later,

[Snoopy]

Originally Posted by Vajradhara

Snoopy.. you have discovered the singular bit about the Vajrayana which accounts for its teachings..

Hey, that's why I'm "Snoopy" !!

Thanks for this Vaj.

s.

[Snoopy]

Originally Posted by Vajradhara

it's interesting to see how prominent Buddhists talk to non-Buddhist audiences and how they speak to Buddhist ones. in a lecture on Buddhisms impact on Western Culture, to a Buddhist audience, His Holiness the Dalai Lama said that he is fully expecting to see a whole new array of Thangka and Mandala work originating out of the Western Buddhist experience and was somewhat surprised that it hadn't happened yet but understood that the Dharma was, in a very real sense, still new to the West.
i mention this since i, too, have some issues with the visizulations that are recommeneded.. though i've a vivid imagination so it's not too hard
~v

Hi Vaj,

Is your comment I've bolded simply a reference to expecting more Westernised cultural bases for visualisations or were you making some wider point?

s.

[Vajradhara]

Originally Posted by Snoopy

Hi Vaj,

Is your comment I've bolded simply a reference to expecting more Westernised cultural bases for visualisations or were you making some wider point?

s.

Hi Snoopy,

it was specific to the development of Western visualisations along tradition Buddhist themes.

naturally, one would expect a discourse to be somewhat different to beings that practice and beings that do not but that doesn't seem all that unusual.

metta,

~v