To enter the Kingdom

Gatekeeper · 01-13-2008, 01:12 AM

Why does Jesus say that the least among us, is the greatest, and why do you think He tells us that we must become as little children, or we will not enter into the kingdom?

If we are truly the apple of God's eye, then God truly Loves us, right? Is it possible to have complete and utter faith [in] His love for us? I'm of the mind that Christ [is] His Love for us, per John 3:16

Children, when born, have complete and utter faith that they will be taken care of, and loved unconditionally. [They know nothing else] So is this what it means to become the faithful child of God?

Any thoughts?

Love,

James

China Cat Sunflower · 01-13-2008, 03:21 AM

Well, doesn't he say that the least in the Kingdom is greater than the scribes and Pharisees? That would indicate a disdain for the stuffed shirts of the religious establishment it would seem.

Chris

Gatekeeper · 01-13-2008, 04:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

Well, doesn't he say that the least in the Kingdom is greater than the scribes and Pharisees? That would indicate a disdain for the stuffed shirts of the religious establishment it would seem.

Chris

I'm not sure where that would be, China. I do know that it says the least in the kingdom is greater than John the baptist. Luke 7:28, Matthew 11:11

Love,

James

China Cat Sunflower · 01-13-2008, 04:17 AM

Yeah, I remember the part about John. It was a pretty stiff consolation to offer John's disciples on the occasion of his beheading.

Hang on a sec...

Chris

China Cat Sunflower · 01-13-2008, 04:21 AM

OK, I just checked Bible Gateway and the two references you got are the only ones to pop up. I must have slurred two things into one. My bad. Good catch!

Chris

China Cat Sunflower · 01-13-2008, 04:35 AM

I've thought a lot about becoming like little children. It seems to me that this is the baptism experience. Interestingly non coincidental that John the B. should be involved. I have little children of my own as of this typing, and that's what leads me to believe that this adage isn't to be taken too literally! Maybe it's more that the scar tissue of age is lifted so that we see with the fresh eyes of a child.

Chris

Gatekeeper · 01-13-2008, 04:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

OK, I just checked Bible Gateway and the two references you got are the only ones to pop up. I must have slurred two things into one. My bad. Good catch!

Chris

I looked it up on e-sword, mate.

Great program, btw!

Perhaps children have a level of humility that surpass those whom have attained great knowledge on earth? They have no concept of right, wrong, and are under complete control of parents. [Complete reliance on] Any thoughts? I can't remember much about my early years, man.

Love,

James

Gatekeeper · 01-13-2008, 05:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

I've thought a lot about becoming like little children. It seems to me that this is the baptism experience. Interestingly non coincidental that John the B. should be involved. I have little children of my own as of this typing, and that's what leads me to believe that this adage isn't to be taken too literally! Maybe it's more that the scar tissue of age is lifted so that we see with the fresh eyes of a child.

Chris

I missed your post, Chris. [Sorry] Are you suggesting a 'spiritual' baptism? If so, I think I might agree [In part]. It is interesting that John the baptist, [the baptist] is said to be less than the least in the kingdom. Could Christ be tied to John somehow? [Both baptize]

I wonder if our spiritual baptism through Christ [The spiritual baptist] has any bearing, also? Perhaps His baptism of Spirit allows us to die to our old ways of thinking, and we become a new creature in His Spirit. [A birth - A new child]

Perhaps He is saying that we become, or are His children, and that we are greater than He is in the kingdom? He 'could' be suggesting that He loves us more than Himself in this respect. [Deep man] You help me think out the box, bro. Thank you!

Love,

James

Dondi · 01-14-2008, 12:51 PM

Concerning becoming as little children, there is a related thread call "Except ye be converted..." that you might be interested that has something along similar lines.

Now as far as the statement of least being the greater that John the Baptist, consider the spirituality of the man. Though he performed no miracles, he moved people toward repentance and faith toward God. He was simple in his message, exhorting them to be giving and generous to others. He taught the publicans to be fair in their business dealings. To soldiers, to do no harm to others and be content with what they have. And he told the scribes and Pharisees not just to rely on their standing as Abraham's children, but go beyond their religiosity to bear fruit meet for repentence, that is to walk circumspectly according to the Law.

A related passage puts it this way:

"Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." - Matthew 5:19

Since John the Baptist was a man of great stature and reputation, and exuded the essence of Jewish virtue and grace, there was no one in his time near to that true spirituality. Yet for all he represented, there is even a higher level of spirituality in the kingdom of God. The least in the kingdom will be greater than he, because we are comparing an earthly example (John) with the heavenly example (the least in the kingdom), for those in the kingdom of God are perfected.

Does that make any sense?

So Jesus is telling us that we would do and teach the commdnaments to the best of our ability, for in doing so will go far in our establishment in the kingdom of God.

Gatekeeper · 01-14-2008, 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dondi

Concerning becoming as little children, there is a related thread call "Except ye be converted..." that you might be interested that has something along similar lines.

Now as far as the statement of least being the greater that John the Baptist, consider the spirituality of the man. Though he performed no miracles, he moved people toward repentance and faith toward God. He was simple in his message, exhorting them to be giving and generous to others. He taught the publicans to be fair in their business dealings. To soldiers, to do no harm to others and be content with what they have. And he told the scribes and Pharisees not just to rely on their standing as Abraham's children, but go beyond their religiosity to bear fruit meet for repentence, that is to walk circumspectly according to the Law.

A related passage puts it this way:

"Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." - Matthew 5:19

Since John the Baptist was a man of great stature and reputation, and exuded the essence of Jewish virtue and grace, there was no one in his time near to that true spirituality. Yet for all he represented, there is even a higher level of spirituality in the kingdom of God. The least in the kingdom will be greater than he, because we are comparing an earthly example (John) with the heavenly example (the least in the kingdom), for those in the kingdom of God are perfected.

Does that make any sense?

So Jesus is telling us that we would do and teach the commdnaments to the best of our ability, for in doing so will go far in our establishment in the kingdom of God.

Dondi!!

Hey, man...I enjoy your views very much!

Yes, it all makes a great deal of sense. Is there any one right way to view it, tho? Perhaps an incorporation of several elements is the answer?

Love,

James

Dondi · 01-14-2008, 06:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gatekeeper

Dondi!!

Hey, man...I enjoy your views very much!

Yes, it all makes a great deal of sense. Is there any one right way to view it, tho? Perhaps an incorporation of several elements is the answer?

Love,

James

Thank you, James.

You can interpret scripture how you will. I think how one interprets it or incorporates otherdepends on how versed one is to the whole counsel of the Word. I tend to ask questions about what is happening in dealing with a particular passage of scripture. If you don't look into things like setting, background, culture, etc from which the words are spoken, you can often get the wrong impression. Too often, I think folks rely on reading the NT without looking at what happened in the OT and it causes all kinds of misunderstandings about what the text says. Proper hermenitics goes a long way in divining the truth.

Gatekeeper · 01-14-2008, 07:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dondi

Thank you, James.

You can interpret scripture how you will. I think how one interprets it or incorporates otherdepends on how versed one is to the whole counsel of the Word. I tend to ask questions about what is happening in dealing with a particular passage of scripture. If you don't look into things like setting, background, culture, etc from which the words are spoken, you can often get the wrong impression. Too often, I think folks rely on reading the NT without looking at what happened in the OT and it causes all kinds of misunderstandings about what the text says. Proper hermenitics goes a long way in divining the truth.

Are you certain that you know the correct way to view it, then? I'm in agreement with your view, but I also think that when Jesus took the child from the crowd, he was speaking about the humility, and trust, and the innocence of that child.

The least on earth being the trusting, and humble [child] whom relies on others for thier well being. [These are the greatest in the kingdom.] The least in the kingdom, is even greater than the greatest on earth. We are to become as the little children, being born again, trusting in the Lord with all humility, and in all innocence. [A simple, child like faith in God] John the baptist is less on earth, than the least in the kingdom, but John in the kingdom is honored. [Did I get the gist?]

Love,

James

wil · 01-14-2008, 07:28 PM

The innocence is a good word in my book. The awe and wonder of it all, yet the total acceptance of everything. If a child sees nothing but miracles, miracles are ordinary. Go ahead, pull a quarter out from behind a child's ear, they won't be surprised, they'll just look behind their ear for more.

Now those of us who have been tainted by this plane, greed, materialism, envy, lust, the list goes on...we've got a lot of baggage that we cannot take to the next level of understanding.

As for John the Baptist being bested by the least in Heaven, my thinking is that that was when John or anyone was in the material plane, it could all change when John arrives and gets on the same playing field.

Gatekeeper · 01-14-2008, 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wil

The innocence is a good word in my book. The awe and wonder of it all, yet the total acceptance of everything. If a child sees nothing but miracles, miracles are ordinary. Go ahead, pull a quarter out from behind a child's ear, they won't be surprised, they'll just look behind their ear for more.

Now those of us who have been tainted by this plane, greed, materialism, envy, lust, the list goes on...we've got a lot of baggage that we cannot take to the next level of understanding.

As for John the Baptist being bested by the least in Heaven, my thinking is that that was when John or anyone was in the material plane, it could all change when John arrives and gets on the same playing field.

A clown see's a childs heart, and he recognizes the awe, and the wonder, and the acceptence of the miraculous they experience. Wil, you are a gem! Thank you for the reminder, bro!

"When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways."

Ahh, To be born again ....

...Love

James

Saltmeister · 01-15-2008, 03:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gatekeeper

A clown see's a childs heart, and he recognizes the awe, and the wonder, and the acceptence of the miraculous they experience. Wil, you are a gem! Thank you for the reminder, bro!

"When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways."

Ahh, To be born again ....

...Love

James

That's right!!! Jesus was a clown . . . and he formed many spectacular and astounding tricks. He was a source of humour and happiness.