Torah-observant Christian?

[Prober]

Do you think the concept of being a torah-observant Christian would be silly?

Would you describe or provide a good link for the yearly Jewish feasts and what a person does on them?

[dauer]

Prober,

By Judaism, a torah-observant Christian would be a noahide. Separate category of mitzvot, etc. And there is noahide lit out there, including by noahides, who are probably more qualified to discuss the issue than I. Although some of the noahide lit is also coming from fairly ultra-orthodox circles and can sometimes be a little restrictive. I know for example that Chabad's now working around that, and they even talk about, I forget the term they use, I think it's hasidic gentiles.

There are also so-called "messianic Jews" which isn't really a correct name, Christian group that adopt Jewish practices. When it's done as a way of getting back to Christianity's roots or closer to Jesus or something like that I say great. Go for it. I don't mind the syncretism. I think it's a healthy and natural thing for all religions to some degree. But those groups who do it to try and convert Jews, that bothers me.

If you're looking for info on the various Jewish festivals and holy days, I think the best resource is really

MyJewishLearning.com: Week of January 15, 2007: Jews and Blacks, Martin Luther King Da

So you go there and pick a special day, tu bishvat for example, and to me the best way to go about it is follow the guided learnings in the left hand column, starting with the simplest and moving forward. That way you get as much or as little info as you want, and it's all written by different people from all different backgrounds, often excerpted from published books. The one thing not under holidays is Shabbat, which (imo quite rightly) is under Daily Life & Practice.

There's also Judaism 101. One author so it's a little more concise, but it's also representing only one viewpoint because of that, and also has less info, although there is quite a bit there, and all of the most important stuff.

Dauer

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Prober

Do you think the concept of being a torah-observant Christian would be silly?

. Yep. Can't observe the 613 mizhvat, and still be Christian. Because the laws aren't required...oh and there are jews for jesus. Can't take that away from them. That would be vain...

[dauer]

Q,

oh and there are jews for jesus. Can't take that away from them. That would be vain...

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by that, but Jews for Jesus is a Christian evangelical group that disguises itself as Judaism in order to try and gain converts. Not really sure what you meant though.

Dauer

[Quahom1]

I should have checked with you before I posted. I'm in error and I apologize.

I thought they were Jews who discovered Christ as the savior. They kept their roots but had a revelation...again, I appologize.


v/r

Joshua

[Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

I should have checked with you before I posted. I'm in error and I apologize.

I thought they were Jews who discovered Christ as the savior. They kept their roots but had a revelation...again, I apologize.


v/r

Joshua

Or checked with bb (JforJ is his "favorite" subject [be sure to have plenty of cute ferrets with you as an apology.])

Anyway, twenty lashes with a wet linguine (along with a couple of cute :kitty:s and a few cute ferrets.)

Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine

[bananabrain]

HARRUMPH.

josh - feel free to do a search on any of my posts on the subject of those duplicitous, dishonest heretical groups that refer to themselves as "messianic jews" and come back to me. otherwise, what dauer said about noahides.

b'shalom

bananabrain

[Prober]

Thanks all!

I was thinking about Jesus' being a Jew and wondering if he really meant for his views to become this giant new thing (religion) or if he was just adding meaning to (as he said) "the law and the prophets".

Maybe he expected his listeners to view their religion with "new eyes".

I'm not trying to change your opinion or preach, just thinking...

So, if I think that way, am I a Hasidic Gentile?

Can you believe in Jesus and be a Jew or is that too far off the track?

Again, thanks.

[Prober]

Okay. A couple more questions...

01. Is any discussion of Jesus offensive? Is it something that should be left alone?

02. I'm reading on a noahide page that non-Jews are not allowed to keep Sabbath. Is that true? Comments?

Thanks.

[Prober]

And another one...Is it the responsibility of all Jews to share and teach the truth to hasten the coming of the Moshiach?

[dauer]

So, if I think that way, am I a Hasidic Gentile?

The hasidic gentile thing is a chabad thing. They're a very orthodox hasidic group that do a lot of missionizing to to people less religious that we should all be orthodox. The way they understand it I think it has more to do with being a strict noahide who accepts Judaism as having gotten it right but feels they don't belong as a jew, and they're very anti-Christianity. So no, I don't think that term would be appropriate.

You're probably a noahide by default. If you accepted being a noahide because you thought it was the right thing to do as per Torah, and not just because you happen to be fulfilling it, that would be more of the path of the whole noahide movement. But the noahide movement also rejects jesus' divinity in all corners afaik.

Can you believe in Jesus and be a Jew or is that too far off the track?

Well, if you believed Jesus was somehow divine, that could be a problem. However, and what I say now might be disagreeable to some, we do have for example Rebbe Nachman of Bratslav who said that if you visit his tomb in Uman and you say this special arrangement of psalms that he said was very powerful, and then you give even the smallest amount of tzedakah, he'll even grab you by your peyos, your sidecurls, to pull you out of gehenna. Sounds very Christian, no? A rebbe who can save people, in that sense. But he's also not thought of as divine. However his hasidim still find a connection to him via his writings and the practices he suggested. So I don't think someone could believe Jesus was divine and be a Jew. I'm not even quite sure someone could go as far as the breslovers, just because of the history Judaism and Christianity have had, and the fact that they've separate. But if a Jew thought of Jesus as a wise teacher, that is probably less of a problem.

01. Is any discussion of Jesus offensive? Is it something that should be left alone?

No. Evangelizing is offensive. Discussion of Jesus is no different than discussion of any other historical figure. I think there's a false idea some people have that Jews hate Jesus or are absolutely offended by any talk about him. He's not really relevant to Judaism as a religion, but tthere's nothing wrong with talking about him.

02. I'm reading on a noahide page that non-Jews are not allowed to keep Sabbath. Is that true? Comments?

Yes. Going by halachah. If a non-Jew wanted to keep shabbos they would have to make at least one small violation, maybe doing a small type of melachah before nightfall on Saturday. That's also what converts do, before they finish the process.

And another one...Is it the responsibility of all Jews to share and teach the truth to hasten the coming of the Moshiach?

Well, personally, I don't believe in the traditional concept of the moshiach. However, going by the traditional concept the general answer would be no. More about being an example by behavior. If the moshiach really comes and everything is fulfilled, there will be no question in anyone's mind. So it's not really necessary to go around trying to convince people of something.

Dauer

[Prober]

Originally Posted by dauer

Yes. Going by halachah. If a non-Jew wanted to keep shabbos they would have to make at least one small violation, maybe doing a small type of melachah before nightfall on Saturday. That's also what converts do, before they finish the process.
Dauer

I'm a Seventh-day Adventist since birth (aside from falling away during my teens, etc) so I keep the Sabbath, in the manner in which I was taught - starting Friday night at sundown until Saturday at sundown, no work, as little cooking and cleaning as possible, etc.

Since I'm probably not keeping it in an exactly Jewish way, am I correct in assuming that I'm probably making some kind of error which would be the "melachah".

Is that correct?

Is it to keep people from doing holy things in a "profane" way?

Thanks, again for your comments.

[dauer]

Prober

Since I'm probably not keeping it in an exactly Jewish way, am I correct in assuming that I'm probably making some kind of error which would be the "melachah".

Yes. Melachah is a Hebrew word that's generally only used for the types of work forbidden for Shabbos. Some say the word refers to creative work, that is works that are actively manipulating the world around us, others say maybe a better way to understand it would be delagatable work, but there are a whole number of categories, each with different acts that would be related to it, of melachah.

Is it to keep people from doing holy things in a "profane" way?

Well I mean I suppose that's one way you could look at it. But I think you could say the same thing about doing anything in a manner perscribed as opposed to a manner that is not supposed to be done. What it really has to do with traditionally is that Shabbos is something that, according to the Torah, was given to the Jewish people, not the world, for them to keep and follow. The covenant with noah, and the noahide laws contained, do not mention shabbos. What makes Judaism Judaism according to Judaism is a particular relationship with God that is defined by the 613 mitzvot.


Dauer

[Prober]

Thanks. I was thinking that "melachah" meant some kind of error.

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, all! especially Prober for the OP, and Dauer for this response:

Originally Posted by dauer

There are also so-called "messianic Jews" which isn't really a correct name, Christian group that adopt Jewish practices. When it's done as a way of getting back to Christianity's roots or closer to Jesus or something like that I say great. Go for it. I don't mind the syncretism. I think it's a healthy and natural thing for all religions to some degree. But those groups who do it to try and convert Jews, that bothers me.

It's taken me a little while, and some thoroughly unexpected backlash from our resident curmudgeon whose opinions I hold in the highest of esteem, to realize what Dauer said is true. When I first came to CR, I considered myself sympathetic to the concept of messianic judaism, completely unaware of the political connotations attached. I am still sympathetic to the underlying concept minus the conversion tactics, and I can appreciate the term "hasidic gentiles," as well as *now* understanding the chagrin of those who are targeted by a conversion campaign.

If I could take exception to only one teensy bit of Dauer's comment; I don't personally see "hasidic gentile / messianic jew" as some form of syncretism. To me, it is a point of returning to the basis, the *real* fundamentals. If Jesus was born a Jew, to a Jewish mother, raised by a Jewish father in an observant Jewish home, having been taught Jewish tradition and having kept Jewish Kosher and observances, teaching Jewish law to Jewish followers, and having died a Jewish criminals death as a Jewish scapegoat and substitute Jewish sacrifice to satisfy Jewish ritual, then to me the return to Jewish roots is a no brainer. It is the unloading of all of the *pagan* trappings that have been piled high onto the fundamentally radical Jewish teachings of the man Christians call Christ. Indeed, this is a fundamental teaching of Jesus, specifically to do away with the traditions of men. I haven't made an effort to count the times this was said, but I seem to recall this lesson being made on more than one occasion. It scarcely seems logical to me, to dump the Jewish "traditions" in favor of pagan ones.

So if I do have some conflict remaining in my soul and in my search, it is how much Jewish tradition to maintain. I suppose, in the eyes of Judaism, as a Noahide I am free not to maintain any Jewish tradition. I have been told so much as the 613 are not for me anyway, that I would be effectively stupid to take them up without full conversion to the Jewish faith. Which of course, from my point of view, would defeat the purpose.

So I wander in a no man's land...too Jewish to be Christian, too Christian to be Jewish...and neither side is very sympathetic. So I will listen to my heart and follow where G-d leads me.