Trancendental Meditation

[MagnetMan]

Sorry about the removed image. I had permission to use it, but no matter

Here's a word picture.

DUAL BRAIN DEVELOPMENT

Left Brain .....................................Right Brain
Controls right side of body...................Controls left side of body
Analytical........................................ .Intuituive
Masculine........................................ Feminine
Egocentric........................................ Ethical
Mechanistic...................................... Artistic
Relies on reason................................. Relies on instinct

[I, Brian]

The number of adherents to an idea really doesn't validate claims of anything. It's especially the claims made that there is scientific validation to the Maharishi Effect and similar claims that I'd really like to explore, as this was a point I was earlier critical of.

[MagnetMan]

Originally Posted by I, Brian

The number of adherents to an idea really doesn't validate claims of anything. It's especially the claims made that there is scientific validation to the Maharishi Effect and similar claims that I'd really like to explore, as this was a point I was earlier critical of.

Strickly speaking what you say is true. But when millions are attracted to the same idea for decades, one has to assume there must be something of intrinsic value that is being offered and at least worth a cursory examination- which I believe may have been your intent from the start. As to the Maharishi effect, I'm afraid that I cannot be of much help as I have had nothing to do with TM for almost thirty years. If the effect is related to him as a person, I would be completely at a loss to explain what it is. But if it is related to the actual meaning of maharishi - a sanscrit honorarium for great teacher/knower, I could hazzard a guess as to what they mean by that effect. I have personally found that by religiously practicing meditation (not necessarily via a mantra, but by any system that can focus the mind and halt its interminalble analytical meanderings for a few minutes at a time) one eventually gains metaphsyical insights into reality that surface from the sub-cosnciousness. Bits of information that were not formerly present in the observing cionsciousness. Some of these insights are profound enough to want to make(compel) one to share them. ((Ureka!) In short there is an inner impulse to teach - even preach. All divinity students go through the same experience. Anyhow, this has been my experience ..and of course I have consequently suffered personal embarrassment in our modern milieu which is, rightly or wrongly, highly resistent to assertions of subjectively perceived truths. I do know that MIU, Maharishi International University. has been established for at least the 20 years. Check out these websites. http://cbeprograms.org/ and http://noetic.org/research.cfm
By the way, my ancestors are Scottish thus I continue to have the same instinctive dour outlook before validation.

[I, Brian]

I think the concern about the Maharishi effect isn't so much that meditation can have a beneficial effect on the individual - I think there's a lot in the scientific lit which would agree with this, even in reductionist terms.

The problem with the Maharishi Effect is that it claims that a small number of meditating individuals can have an affect outside of the persons, and provide an actual and measurable social effect on non-participants.

This is obviously quite an astonishing claim, and one the TM movement claims to be able to prove with regular studies - the problem being, that it is only TM instutions that are proving TM ideas, so claiming scientific validation for them seems premature at best.

As for millions of people following any idea - I simply take that as validation of humanity's diverse needs and interests, rather than validating those needs and interests as inherently good. After all, millions of people over the years taking up smoking or commiting suicide hardly validate those habits either.

As for the warning of dour Scot aboard - note taken. Yorkshireman here turning into a Scot.

[MagnetMan]

quote=I, Brian]I think the concern about the Maharishi effect isn't so much that meditation can have a beneficial effect on the individual - I think there's a lot in the scientific lit which would agree with this, even in reductionist terms.

The problem with the Maharishi Effect is that it claims that a small number of meditating individuals can have an affect outside of the persons, and provide an actual and measurable social effect on non-participants.

This is obviously quite an astonishing claim, and one the TM movement claims to be able to prove with regular studies - the problem being, that it is only TM instutions that are proving TM ideas, so claiming scientific validation for them seems premature at best.

As for millions of people following any idea - I simply take that as validation of humanity's diverse needs and interests, rather than validating those needs and interests as inherently good. After all, millions of people over the years taking up smoking or commiting suicide hardly validate those habits either.

As for the warning of dour Scot aboard - note taken. Yorkshireman here turning into a Scot. [/quote]

Point taken. You are a more up on the Maharishi effect pers se than I am. Will add this tho. When I joined TM in 1972, a general concern for the environmental and other deteriorating global issues was barely noticable. It can be argued that over the past thirty years, with estimated 200,million westerners now engaged in some form of Far Eastern religious practices, they have had a significant effect on the mass consciousness in general. Trying to prove that this is so because of esoteric or exoteric influences, is in my opinion moot. What is real is that it is happening and we are all the more prepared to deal with exponetial factors of future shock because of it. In this repect I feel it is better to encourage such spiritual efforts, rather than denigrate them - if for nothing else than the fact that the TM researchers might be right after all. A further point, in reference to my former statement about the inner impulse to share good news. If two hundred million are also having my experience and preaching the good news, does that mass effect not encompass both views? Now how about a shot at synchronicity. How many Yorkshiremen are there? Several million? You might not know of a geologist called John Oglesby of Ilkly? Have'nt seen or heard of him since Tanganyika in '59.

[I, Brian]

I have family in Ilkley, but don't recognise the name Oglesby.

[MagnetMan]

Originally Posted by I, Brian

I have family in Ilkley, but don't recognise the name Oglesby.

That was a zen arrow. shot blindfold. Hit the town but missed the bullseye. But at least gave me the opportunity to let you know that I a spent many a pleasant hour in the East African bushveld enjoying Yorkshire's brand of humor - and yorkshire pud with venison, baked over an open fire.
I would like to make a further important point that we have both over-looked uring this discussion on metaphsyics. Hopefully it is taken it in the same spirit it is given. If, for instance, as a scientist, you had posted a thread that took Christian prayers to task, bluntly stating that they had no proof of their efficasy outside of the individual or group trying to transmit them, one can only imagine the uproar your post would have caused. Stirring the pot again, I know - but with friendly intent.

[I, Brian]

I believe there's some good scientific research on the use of prayer, so hopefully we'd have a wider range of context to work with.

[wil]

Originally Posted by I, Brian

I believe there's some good scientific research on the use of prayer, so hopefully we'd have a wider range of context to work with.

I think this is what absolutely befuddles me. Are you indicating you think prayer works on externally..outside of the individual praying as in on prayed for individuals or circumstances....yet TM does not?

Is this semantics...is not TM a form of prayer or prayer a form of TM? Is not prayer focused thought and energy?

Our thoughts are prayers..
and we are always praying..
Our thoughts are prayers
take charge of what your saying
seek a higher conscousness
a place of peacefulness
for everythought becomes a prayer..

[I, Brian]

No - it's that the TM movement continues to post "proofs" that the Maharishi Effect exists. I was critical of that before due to the lack of references to peer-reviewed studies.

With Christian prayer at least, I'm under the impression there are possibly more peer-reviewed studies on that subject, hence any such discussion of the issue can be more properly balanced by different studies and arguments.

[wil]

One thing about a lot of studies and peer review is the nature of the task....can you tell me who else has an interest in funding TM studies? It is liike herbal studies...they rarely exist as herbs can't be patented....so unless you have some specific man made combination patentable product you can't reap the rewards of the money it costs to make the study...

Christianity has its supporters have their fingers in enough places and enough money to fund all sorts of studies...

One of the issues on the studies that Christians and their denominations have issues with is that doesn't matter whether you are Baptist, Catholic, Lutheran, Methodist, Hindu, Jewish, Muslim or use TM, prayer works...

The DC TM study is what I here both touted and derided the most.

[MagnetMan]

Originally Posted by wil

One thing about a lot of studies and peer review is the nature of the task....can you tell me who else has an interest in funding TM studies? It is liike herbal studies...they rarely exist as herbs can't be patented....so unless you have some specific man made combination patentable product you can't reap the rewards of the money it costs to make the study...

Christianity has its supporters have their fingers in enough places and enough money to fund all sorts of studies...

One of the issues on the studies that Christians and their denominations have issues with is that doesn't matter whether you are Baptist, Catholic, Lutheran, Methodist, Hindu, Jewish, Muslim or use TM, prayer works...

The DC TM study is what I here both touted and derided the most.

Well said.

[I, Brian]

Originally Posted by wil

One thing about a lot of studies and peer review is the nature of the task....can you tell me who else has an interest in funding TM studies?

That's something of a cop-out, though - peer-reviewed science isn't an inaccessible world, and it shouldn't be too hard for the TM movement to offer a post-graduate grant to prove their points.

Instead, we get the TM movement posting their claims regardless, and claiming scientific validation - when it is nothing more than their own groups proving their own ideology.

Perhaps there are peer-reviewed studies into the Maharishi Effect - but without them as reference points, it's impossible to provide a balanced argument on the subject.

It is liike herbal studies...they rarely exist as herbs can't be patented....so unless you have some specific man made combination patentable product you can't reap the rewards of the money it costs to make the study...

There's nothing to stop the TM movement funding studies outside of themselves, to validate their claims regarding the Mahirishi Effect. Personally, I'd say if it was as easily provable as they state, then the benefits in terms of credibility would be enormous for them.

[MagnetMan]

Originally Posted by I, Brian

There's nothing to stop the TM movement funding studies outside of themselves, to validate their claims regarding the Mahirishi Effect. Personally, I'd say if it was as easily provable as they state, then the benefits in terms of credibility would be enormous for them.

Perfectly valid point. And it would be a good idea for them to do so, if they have not already. However, in terms of simple social courtesy, if Christains have already proved their point, and you more or less accept their findings, then, I take it, we have agreed to some extent to agree on the existence of a compassionate overs-soul, by whatever name we give it. If this is so, even without outside validation, why would we assume that the same compassionate spirit does not listen to all sincere pleas? Could we not at least accept, in principle, that the TM studies, though self-serving, do not insult our common sense and are not unduly flawed?

Perhaps this whole argument could be cleared up and ease your feelings of scientific trespass, if you got hold of one of their studies and critiqued their methodology point by point.

[I, Brian]

Originally Posted by MagnetMan

if Christains have already proved their point, and you more or less accept their findings, then, I take it, we have agreed to some extent to agree on the existence of a compassionate overs-soul, by whatever name we give it.

I haven't though.

My position is neutral - simply that I'm aware that some peer-reviewed studies into Christian Prayer have been conducted, and while I'm aware that there may be some that support such a phenomenon, I would also expect there to be other studies unable to find it. The balance of the argument would be in being able to take information from both to form an opinion with.