Trinity - Page 14

Thomas · 02-25-2008, 12:42 PM

Hi Joe —

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joedjr

The builders of Christian tradition of which you speak were the ones that have erred. They changed and added as they have seen fit to promote their ideas. Ideas that have very little biblical basis. If Christianity was practiced in line with what is taught in the bible instead of what was in the imagination of the tradition builders it would look nothing like we have today.

Ah. I understand now.

Matthew 13:10-11
"And his disciples came and said to him: Why speakest thou to them in parables? Who answered and said to them: Because to you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven: but to them it is not given."

There's the difference. Orthodox Christianity is founded on Apostolic Tradition, and explains the Mystery of Scripture ... without those commentaries, the Mysteries remain veiled.

Thomas

Joedjr · 02-25-2008, 01:26 PM

Hi Thomas,

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas

Hi Joe —
Ah. I understand now.
There's the difference. Orthodox Christianity is founded on Apostolic Tradition, and explains the Mystery of Scripture ... without those commentaries, the Mysteries remain veiled.
Thomas

So are you saying the church fathers ( tradition builders) have been Divinely inspired down through the ages?

Joe

Still thinking · 02-25-2008, 03:20 PM

Thomas - don't you love how Mee never addressed the errors in the NWT? You seem to be very educated in this area, since you mentioned the so-called "translators" of that Bible being unable to pass a simple test. If this is the "best and most accurate" translation of the Bible, I would challenge someone to give evidence, instead of regurgitating the same tired claims. Just a thought . . . . . . .

Thomas · 02-25-2008, 05:57 PM

Hi Joe —

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joedjr

So are you saying the church fathers ( tradition builders) have been Divinely inspired down through the ages?

Yes ... but that probably requires some explanation.

The first 'Tradition Builder' was Jesus Himself.

Following Jesus, came the Apostles, who taught as He taught them, and who were inspired (as were others) by the Holy Spirit (as detailed in Acts).

Next come the authors of Scripture, who were inspired by the Holy Spirit in what they wrote.

Next comes the Fathers, but we do not accord to the Fathers the same infallibility we accord Scripture.

However, when all the Fathers are in accord on a point of doctrine, then we can rely pretty well on that teaching being infallible. In the same way, the Church Councils are infallible, and the Magisterium is infallible ... this infallibility is founded on the succession of the Petrine Office:

"And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven."
Matthew 16:18-19

You don't have to accept it of course, if you're not Catholic/Orthodox, but that does not mean it's not the case.

Thomas

Thomas · 02-25-2008, 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Still thinking

You seem to be very educated in this area,

Ha! Oops, sorry, no insult! I only laugh because my course director is fluent in Hebrew, Greek, latin and Ugaritic ... now that's what I call 'educated'!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Still thinking

since you mentioned the so-called "translators" of that Bible being unable to pass a simple test. If this is the "best and most accurate" translation of the Bible, I would challenge someone to give evidence, instead of regurgitating the same tired claims. Just a thought . . . . . . .

Well the leader of the translation committee claimed to be fluent in Greek and Hebrew, but when asked, under oath, to translate a simple piece of Hebrew text, he declined. I'll dig out the link, if you want, there's a transcript of the trial.

The JW's have always tried to keep secret the names of the translators, precisely because there's not one 'with the Greek' as the Irish would say, amongst 'em, but eventually it all came out...

What makes me laugh most is that the JWs are doing precisely what they accuse everyone else of doing ... their's is 'the tradition of men' and their doctrine is 'heretic' in that it chooses to emphasise one aspect of Scripture (the Book of Daniel) and ignore the New testament almost entirely, except for the odd quote here and there ... it certainly ignores the spirit ...

... I don't understand why such 'Christians' who base their entire doctrine on a narrow reading of the Old Testament don't become Jews — in fact no, that's unfair to the Jews, perhaps Islam would suit them better, with its command to submission and its denial of the divinity of Jesus ... certainly the fundamental commandment of Christianity — 'love thy neighbour as I have loved you' is completely ignored. These guys are real 'fire 'n' brimstone' types.

Thomas

mee · 02-26-2008, 10:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pico

To my understanding of the Bible, Jesus claimed to be God.

show me where Jesus said that ?

mee · 02-26-2008, 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas

I would have thought the Bible is the history of God 'stepping into' the affairs of man. Your assumption that there was a tie when God was not involved in the affairs of man seems to ignore the Bible.

Thomas

the whole world is in the power of the wicked one (SATAN THE DEVIL) 1 JOHN 5;19

The goverments and rulerships of this world are under the influence of that wicked one , weather those goverments and rulerships are aware of it or not .
those in power may be sincere in their trying to rule in the right way ,but the WHOLE WORLD IS UNDER SATANS POWER.

but now in this time of the end the heavenly kingdom is well established and it was born in 1914 and it is spoken of in REVELATION 12 ;5

And she gave birth to a son, a male, who is to shepherd all the nations with an iron rod. And her child was caught away to God and to his throne.
( rev12;5)

yes there is great opposition to the birth of Gods kingdom as revelation 12;3 informs us

And the dragon kept standing before the woman who was about to give birth, that, when she did give birth, it might devour her child. rev 12;3

but no worries that male child which is GODS KINGDOM has the protection of the most high .

no longer can satan get at that child in heaven ,so he is out to be in opposition to anyone who upholds that kingdom down here on the earth .

mee · 02-26-2008, 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas

.

how can it be 'well established' if you don't know when it will come to fruition?

Thomas

those who did not fall asleep to bible prophecy and chronology knew just when the end of the gentile times were . and they knew that 1914 was a very significant date , and now the understanding is very abundant Daniel 12;4

and they know that it has all happened just as the bible foretold . the setting up of the heavenly kingdom happened right on time and Jesus was given his kingship right on time .
its already been established but noone knows the day or hour when Jesus will go into action to crush and put an end to human rulerships . Daniel 2;44.

notice that in Daniel 2;44 it says that the God of heaven will set up a kingdom IN THE DAYS OF THOSE KINGS..

Yes ,it was set up while those human kings and rulerships were STILL RULING

mee · 02-26-2008, 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas

God stepped 'into the affairs of man' in the Garden of Eden, and has been at man's side ever since. It's only you who can't see it.

Thomas

It is quite true to say that God after Adam and Eve sinned , put something in place to fix the problem . and the first ever prophecy in the bible is what it is all about GENESIS 3;15

Adam and Eve lost everlasting life ,but the RANSOM is what it is all about to get everlasting life back again .

The Ransom—God’s Greatest Gift

mee · 02-26-2008, 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas

These guys are real 'fire 'n' brimstone' types.

Thomas

if you knew any thing about JW you would not be so lacking in knowledge

mee · 02-26-2008, 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas

... I don't understand why such 'Christians' who base their entire doctrine on a narrow reading of the Old Testament

Thomas

yet more lack of knowledge showing up with you . you dont seem to know any thing about the beliefs of JW.

mee · 02-26-2008, 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas

certainly the fundamental commandment of Christianity — 'love thy neighbour as I have loved you' is completely ignored.

Thomas

its love of God and neighbor that moves them to action

matthew 28-19-20 matthew 24;14

"They are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world."—John 17:16.

you will not find JW involved in learning war thats because they listen to Jesus and what he taught .

yes Jehovahs people are instructed by the most high and it is all about LOVE being fed by Jesus and putting it into pratice is the thing to be doing especially in the last days matthew 24;45-47

i am glad to say that Jehovahs witnesses are showing real good friutage ,

even under opposition

mee · 02-26-2008, 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas

What makes me laugh most is that the JWs are doing precisely what they accuse everyone else of doing ... their's is 'the tradition of men' and their doctrine is 'heretic' in that it chooses to emphasise one aspect of Scripture (the Book of Daniel) and ignore the New testament almost entirely, except for the odd quote here and there ... it certainly ignores the spirit ...

.

Thomas

now you are showing yourself up as a person without accurate knowledge

shall we see what the new testament teaches .

Happy are the mild-tempered ones, since they will inherit the earth.
matthew 5;5

But there are new heavens and a new earth that we are awaiting according to his promise, and in these righteousness is to dwell.
2 peter 3;13

And I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the former heaven and the former earth had passed away, and the sea is no more. REVELATION 21

make no mistake about it ,the ruling powers of this world will pass away and the earthly society of people that will be left on the earth will be those who are righteous in Gods eyes .

And out of his mouth there protrudes a sharp long sword, that he may strike the nations with it, and he will shepherd them with a rod of iron. He treads too the winepress of the anger of the wrath of God the Almighty. And upon his outer garment, even upon his thigh, he has a name written, King of kings and Lord of lords.revelation 19 ;15-16

mee · 02-26-2008, 12:50 PM

[quote=Still thinking;139830]Thomas - don't you love how Mee never addressed the errors in the NWT? quote]
thats because there are none

true knowledge is now abundant Daniel 12;4

At that time the righteous ones will shine as brightly as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Let him that has ears listen. matthew 13;43

And as regards those having insight among the people, they will impart understanding to the many. And they will certainly be made to stumble by sword and by flame, by captivity and by plundering, for [some] days. DANIEL 11;33

true knowledge is now abundant in more ways than one.

and getting the bible back to its original meanings is just one of those ways , and what great things are accomplished when the most high is behind it all.

and those with insight dont need to be the wise ones of this world , because the wise ones of this world lean on their own understanding . and that is not a good thing in the eyes of the most high .

Still thinking · 02-26-2008, 03:07 PM

[quote=mee;139937]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Still thinking

Thomas - don't you love how Mee never addressed the errors in the NWT? quote]
thats because there are none

true knowledge is now abundant Daniel 12;4

At that time the righteous ones will shine as brightly as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Let him that has ears listen. matthew 13;43

And as regards those having insight among the people, they will impart understanding to the many. And they will certainly be made to stumble by sword and by flame, by captivity and by plundering, for [some] days. DANIEL 11;33

true knowledge is now abundant in more ways than one.

and getting the bible back to its original meanings is just one of those ways , and what great things are accomplished when the most high is behind it all.

and those with insight dont need to be the wise ones of this world , because the wise ones of this world lean on their own understanding . and that is not a good thing in the eyes of the most high .

That's because there are none?! Are you kidding me, or are you just kidding yourself? Every single English translation of the Bible has errors and inconsistencies; it was written in three different, complex languages. Of course something will be lost in translation, it's unavoidable. Since the Bible was first translated, there has been a continual search for the greatest accuracy; an evolution, if you will. This is precisely why it cannot be taken literally to the Nth degree; the original language must first be examined. For you to say the NWT is without errors is not only arrogant, it is also dangerously uneducated.