Trinity - Page 19

BlaznFattyz · 03-08-2008, 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gatekeeper

I still do not see where 'only' God saves

then who can save man?

Gatekeeper · 03-08-2008, 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlaznFattyz

then who can save man?

The son of man, perhaps?

Matthew 9:6

Christ Jesus - son of God - He who [gave] His life that we might live. The blemishless lamb, He who [lived] his life in perfect obedience to the father.

James

p.s. This is pointless to argue about, since no one truly knows what is Christ's nature. [How can we] I'm not going to change minds, nor are you. It would take the hand of God to get me to view Jesus as God, Blazn - and vice versa.

Thomas · 03-08-2008, 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gatekeeper

Are saying that I 'must' view it your way to be saved, Thomas? tsk, tsk -

Now, now. I am saying:
a - you are wrong to assume God is bound by the laws of nature,
b - you were factually wrong about the Church (the love thing).
That's all.

The opinion bit is self-evident.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gatekeeper

Mans mental/intellectual concept of God makes no difference [imo]

Of course it does. What if your image is of Moloch?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gatekeeper

Same goes with the trinity - it is far too complicated for even the average adult to conceptualize, much less a child....

Actually in my experience children accept it without too much difficulty.

The problem is with adults, who insist they have to understand it, and assume if they can't, it must be something wrong with the teaching.
1 Corinthians 3:2 "I gave you milk to drink, not meat; for you were not able as yet. But neither indeed are you now able; for you are yet carnal."

Thomas

Gatekeeper · 03-08-2008, 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas

Now, now. I am saying:
a - you are wrong to assume God is bound by the laws of nature,
b - you were factually wrong about the Church (the love thing).
That's all.

The opinion bit is self-evident.

Of course it does. What if your image is of Moloch?

Actually in my experience children accept it without too much difficulty.

The problem is with adults, who insist they have to understand it, and assume if they can't, it must be something wrong with the teaching.
1 Corinthians 3:2 "I gave you milk to drink, not meat; for you were not able as yet. But neither indeed are you now able; for you are yet carnal."

Thomas

Are saying I am carnal because I don't view Jesus as God, then?

Seriously Thomas - the point I was making about babes is that they have no concept of much of anything, cept the value of a loving/caring hand. This is how I prefer to view Christ - I'm not gonna try to change your mind, and I am not [able] to change mine. It has nothing to do with being Spiritual, or carnal.

I don't understand the trinity, and I'm not going to blindly accept a 'thought' just becaus esomeone tells me so. Especially when no one truly knows, bro. I hope you see my point - Salvation does not, nor will it ever depend upon our intellectual view of Jesus' nature [imo] Christ, and God deal with the heart of man; it is through the Spirit that we have life. It is enough for me to believe that both God, and his son love me, and simply want me to embrace that love, and extend it towards my nieghbor. I don't need to conceptualize an image of God - He is beyond my comprehension - but I do view God as spirit, and as love, and I view Jesus in the same light. [Just so you know]

Question: What do you mean I was wrong about the church? If I recall, all I said regarding the church is that - if they were worried about me, then they are in desperate times. [Speaking to Dream, of course] He suggested it was unwise to disagree with the church, so...

2Timothy 1:7 for God gave us a spirit not of fear but of power and love and self-control.

James

mee · 03-08-2008, 06:59 PM

When Jesus died, even the Roman soldiers standing by knew that Jesus was not God:

"The army officer and those with him watching over Jesus, when they saw the earthquake and the things happening, grew very much afraid, saying: ‘Certainly this was God’s Son.’" (Matthew 27:54 )

They did not say, ‘this was God’ or ‘this was God the Son,’ because Jesus and his disciples taught that Jesus was the Son of God, not God Almighty in human form.

BlaznFattyz · 03-09-2008, 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gatekeeper

The son of man, perhaps?

Matthew 9:6

Christ Jesus - son of God - He who [gave] His life that we might live. The blemishless lamb, He who [lived] his life in perfect obedience to the father.

James

p.s. This is pointless to argue about, since no one truly knows what is Christ's nature. [How can we] I'm not going to change minds, nor are you. It would take the hand of God to get me to view Jesus as God, Blazn - and vice versa.

it seems strange to me that when i asked you what seems to me a simple question, you answer it with an unsure question in light of all the things you seem to write about. how can you take a stand on anything if you dont even know who christ is? and find it also strange that you would call it arguing if i asked you a question, because it seems defensive as if you do not want to come to terms that christ is god if it goes that direction.

Thomas · 03-09-2008, 04:48 PM

Hi Gatekeeper —

What always astounds me is the readinless to assert that because I don't understand something, it cannot be understood.

Do we understand the nature of God? No. Do we not believe in Him then ... No.

But you do seem to be setting a limit ... that what we can know about God and the Divine Nature depends upon what you know and understand ... and anything you don't understand, can't be understood.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gatekeeper

p.s. This is pointless to argue about, since no one truly knows what is Christ's nature. [How can we].

We know a lot more about the nature of Christ than you care or choose to to accept. Have you read Christology? Have you studied the Fathers? If you don't understand it, accept that others might, and that it remains a mystery to you ... but don't refute it on the basis of your own capacity. Because you choose to refuse it, does not mean it is not there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gatekeeper

I don't understand the trinity, and I'm not going to blindly accept a 'thought' just because someone tells me so. Especially when no one truly knows, bro.

Again, you don't understand, so assume no-one else can, and you're certainly not going to be enlightened by anyone, because you have decided you are the benchmark of what can and canot be known.

D'you see my point? At what age are we told old to learn? At what age do we assume we know all we need to know?

Just rhetorical thinking ... no answer required.

Thomas

Joedjr · 03-09-2008, 05:37 PM

Hi Thomas,

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas

We know a lot more about the nature of Christ than you care or choose to to accept. Have you read Christology? Have you studied the Fathers? If you don't understand it, accept that others might, and that it remains a mystery to you ... but don't refute it on the basis of your own capacity. Because you choose to refuse it, does not mean it is not there.
Thomas

Since you used caps here are you talking about G!d the Father or are you giving church fathers Divinity?

Joe

Thomas · 03-09-2008, 05:41 PM

Hi Joe —

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joedjr

Since you used caps here are you talking about G!d the Father or are you giving church fathers Divinity?
Joe

I am using the conventional English practice of capitalising honorific titles.

Thomas

Gatekeeper · 03-09-2008, 05:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlaznFattyz

it seems strange to me that when i asked you what seems to me a simple question, you answer it with an unsure question in light of all the things you seem to write about. how can you take a stand on anything if you dont even know who christ is? and find it also strange that you would call it arguing if i asked you a question, because it seems defensive as if you do not want to come to terms that christ is god if it goes that direction.

I'm not unsure at all, Blazn - It is Christ that saves. Matthew 9:6 The son of man has power to forgive sins. The son of man saves - I have no issue with this.

As for arguing - It has not gotten to that point, yet - I am/was simply suggesting that it is a pointless endevour to attempt to change minds when only God has that power. You are free to state your view, just as I am free to state mine. It is when we attempt to make others view it our way that argument begins - It was a cautionary statement, that is all, o.k?

Love

James

Thomas · 03-09-2008, 06:09 PM

Hi James —

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gatekeeper

I am/was simply suggesting that it is a pointless endevour to attempt to change minds when only God has that power. You are free to state your view, just as I am free to state mine. It is when we attempt to make others view it our way that argument begins - It was a cautionary statement, that is all, o.k?

Then Jesus should have known better when He said "Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world." Matthew 28:19-20

That teaching office was given by Jesus to the Apostles (cf Mark 15:16, Luke 24:45-50, John 21:24), and passed by them to their successors, 'even to the consummation of the world'.

Thomas

Gatekeeper · 03-09-2008, 06:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas

Hi Gatekeeper —

What always astounds me is the readinless to assert that because I don't understand something, it cannot be understood.

Do we understand the nature of God? No. Do we not believe in Him then ... No.

I'm not suggesting that just because 'I' don't understand, that you can't either. Seems I remember reading that the trinity cannot be explained, or entirely understood, tho. I might be mistaken, but not too many will claim to understand the trinity completely.

Do I know the entirety of God? No! Do I believe in God? Of course I do, I just don't believe that Jesus was God incarnate. You do believe this, but how can you 'know' w/o a shadow of a doubt? The point I have been making is that you cannot - it is impossible. You can [understand] it to be this way [In mind] but in 'reality' you simply do not, nor can know for sure. I'm surprised you would even attempt to argue this....

Just being realistic, bro. You understand, or rather believe that Jesus was God incarnate, but this simply cannot be known - not with certainty.

I have no problem with others claiming that they understand Jesus to be God - It becomes a problem when some attempt to tell me that He must be viewed in this manner to be saved. You can believe what you wish, even with all your heart, but this doesn't change the 'fact' that we know very little about Jesus' divinity.

I have read many of the early writings of the church fathers. I have read many things, Thomas - Nag Hammadi texts, early hermetc writings, the Quaran, bits and pieces of Buddist philosophy, etc. They all claim something as truth, and many of them make a great deal of sense, but there is only [one] truth, so for now - I'll rely on a spiritual leading, and will weigh my ever evolving views with scripture.

I will however, 'listen' to others in hope that some day I 'might' understand what so many already seem to undestand. I'll not hold my breath, tho. Not when it comes to something as monumental as viewing Jesus as God incarnate. That's a pretty big step, and not a step I wish to take with haste - [Egg shells beneath my feet]

Listen, I believe Jesus had a divine nature [I believe it] what I don't believe is that He was God in the flesh. I simply don't subscribe to the Nicene creed. I do not, nor can I view Jesus as God [At this time]. I could very well be wrong, but so could you, and that is the reality of this discussion.

You assume too much, Thomas. I don't look to be 'enlightened' at all, only lead out of the darkness. Besides, no man has the ability to enlighten another. All we can do is lead to the best of our ability, and God will do the rest.

Do you know w/o a doubt that Jesus was God? I mean do 'really' know? How? Because of what the church leaders wrote, or is it more of a belief than actual knowledge? I'm hoping for a little honesty, btw...

We learn throughout our entire lives - We cannot be told to learn - We just do. [It is an inherent ability] We will never know everything, and that is just a plain fact - Just as it is a fact that we don't have all things right.

Love

James

Gatekeeper · 03-09-2008, 07:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas

Hi James —

Then Jesus should have known better when He said "Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world." Matthew 28:19-20

That teaching office was given by Jesus to the Apostles (cf Mark 15:16, Luke 24:45-50, John 21:24), and passed by them to their successors, 'even to the consummation of the world'.

Thomas

There is a difference between teaching, and letting God make the change - We can't make others view things our way - espescially when our own knowledge is limited. We can teach what we think we understand, and believe that we are doing God's will, but we can't make others change thier minds via argument, or by force - Truth doesn't come by the hands of man, but by the Spirit of God.

James

Thomas · 03-09-2008, 09:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gatekeeper

Truth doesn't come by the hands of man, but by the Spirit of God.

God moves in the depths of all things, in the logoi of things, dark and deep, unseen and anonymous, and any man can serve that God and be one with God, one with the unseen and anonymous ... but in Christ one moves from darkness to light — "He who has seen me has seen the Father" (John 14:9 and cf Acts 18).

The call of Cornelius in Acts 10, is the Spirit leading the faithful seeker of God to the knowledge of God in the light of His teaching. In the same way St Paul was shown the darkness of his error, until at the hands of Ananias he, too, was brought into the light.

Father, Son, Spirit ... one in three, yet three as one, and all three in one.

Thomas

Gatekeeper · 03-09-2008, 09:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas

God moves in the depths of all things, in the logoi of things, dark and deep, unseen and anonymous, and any man can serve that God and be one with God, one with the unseen and anonymous ... but in Christ one moves from darkness to light — "He who has seen me has seen the Father" (John 14:9 and cf Acts 18).

I can't say that I disagree with this at all, Thomas -

You know, my cousin is a Catholic, or rather he is leaning towards the Orthodoxy viewpoint, and we have had many conversations. Some fruitful, and others not so fruitful. But, I always seem to refer to you, and what you post on these boards, and what you have personally told me in the past.

I respect your views, and I respect you, and might even go as far as saying that I admire you for your intellect/understanding, but I don't adhere to everything you believe - It is the nature of doubt, and trying to search matters out for myself, as oppssed to simply accepting, ya know?

Anyway, I just thought you should know - I don't want any hard feelings over a disagreement. I'm sure you are above being offended by a non trinitarian anyway, but just so you know.....

Love

James