Trinity

[Azure24]

Death has two different meanings that are essential for us to differentiate:

1) The ACT OF DYING or termination of life.

2) The STATE OF BEING DEAD


In death (No 1), we are asleep.

All humanity will experience "the act of dying," but absolutely no one will ever experience the "state of being dead." And this is because:

"For the living know that they shall die but the dead know not anything…" (Ecclesiastes 9:5).

Our thoughts become nothing, everything we had (possessions or achievements) will become nothing (unless they are spiritual).

...and about the trinity, to keep a long post short...

"For even if so be that there are those being termed gods, whether in heaven or on earth, even as there are many gods and many lords, nevertheless for US there is ONE God, the FATHER, out of Whom ALL IS, and we for Him, and ONE LORD, JESUS CHRIST, through Whom all is, and we through Him" (I Cor. 8:5-6).

[Dah-veeth]

Since this is a comparative religion forum, I thought I might add a Baha'i perspective on Trinity:

Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 113-115#

I hope the link works... in my own words, God is compared metaphorically to the Sun (even though God is infinitely greater than any created thing) and Jesus is compared to a Perfect Mirror reflecting the Sun, so when you see Jesus you see God.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Pico

The trinity is def. one of the most difficult concepts about God to understand.

How can God be three and one at the same time? Many people reject God being three persons of one nature on principle.

Romans 1:19-20 says, "19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse."

Check it out:

• The universe is made up of Space, Time, and Matter (you could also say energy, but matter is just a different form of energy)
• Space is made up of 3 dimensions (three-in-one)
• Time in one dimension but understood as Past, Present, and Future (three-in-one)
• Ordinary matter is made up of Atoms: which are made up of Protons, Neutrons, and Electrons--except for Hydrogen, which normally doesn't have neutrons (three-in-one)
  • Protons and Neutrons are comprised of 3 smaller particles called quarks (three-in-one)

The universe is made up of over 30 known dimensions. Time as equated above is linear, and moves in one direction. Matter is made of low frequency energy.

Now, the universe is infinite and goes in three directions. Time has no effect on the universe. There is what appears to be more empty space in the universe than there is substance, but in reality, everything in space is filled with something.

To equate that with God is easy. He comes from three directions; time has no effect on Him, He appears to be no where but in reality is everywhere. Just thinking...

v/r

Q

[BlaznFattyz]

im a vampire and a christian and i believe that my views on death, disease and natural disasters are influenced by my living for thousands of years and seeing lots of religious stuff. so i would say that im in some esotoric minority but i believe in God, i just like to bite people, but i was born that way i didnt choose it.

[mee]

Originally Posted by Thomas

"Jesus saith to them: But whom do you say that I am?
Simon Peter answered and said: Thou art Christ, the Son of the living God." Matthew 16:15-16.


Thomas

very true indeed, that is what the bible teaches and those who do not stray from that are inline with truth. but many things have happened to change the pure truth of what Jesus really is .

He said to them: "YOU, though, who do YOU say I am?" 16 In answer Simon Peter said: "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." 17 In response Jesus said to him: "Happy you are, Simon son of Jo´nah, because flesh and blood did not reveal [it] to you, but my Father who is in the heavens did. matthew 16;15-17


regarding peter ,

The Son of God, though, did not then go on to say, ‘and on you, Peter, I will build my congregation.’ No. He said, "on this rock-mass I will build my congregation." Since the subject under consideration was the identity of Jesus, the "rock-mass" must have been the one whom Peter acknowledged as "the Christ, the Son of the living God." In other words, Jesus was saying, ‘Upon the rock-mass, which you, Peter, confess, I will build my congregation.’


That the apostles did not understand Jesus’ statement to signify that Peter was the rock-mass is evident from the fact that they later disputed about who seemed to be the greatest among them. (Mr 9:33-35; Lu 22:24-26) There would have been no basis for such disputing had Peter been given the primacy as the rock-mass on which the congregation was to be built. The Scriptures clearly show that as foundation stones, all the apostles are equal. All of them, including Peter, rest upon Christ Jesus as the foundation cornerstone. (Eph 2:19-22; Re 21:2, 9-14) Peter himself identified the rock-mass (pe´tra) on which the congregation is built as being Christ Jesus. (1Pe 2:4-8

"You are Peter, and on this rock-mass." In the original languages the words for "Peter," meaning "A Piece of Rock," are masc. (Gr., Pe´tros, masc.; Lat., Pe´trus, masc.; Syr., Ki’·pha’, preceded by the masc. personal pronoun hu); whereas the words for "rock-mass" are fem. (Gr., pe´trai, dative, fem. sing.; Lat., pe´tram, fem.; Syr., ki’·pha’, preceded by the fem. demonstrative adjective ha·de’).

If there was any doubt remaining as to the identity of the rock-mass, it would be utterly shattered by the apostle’s words at 1 Corinthians 10:4 (NW), which make unmistakably clear the identity of petra, the rock-mass: "They used to drink from the spiritual rock-mass which followed them, and that rock-mass [Greek, petra] meant the Christ."
So when Jesus spoke those words at Matthew 16:18, he meant that he himself, the one who had just been identified by Peter as the Messiah, was the rockmass foundation on which the Christian congregation would be built.

[Thomas]

Originally Posted by mee

The Son of God, though, did not then go on to say, ‘and on you, Peter, I will build my congregation.’ No. He said, "on this rock-mass I will build my congregation." Since the subject under consideration was the identity of Jesus, the "rock-mass" must have been the one whom Peter acknowledged as "the Christ, the Son of the living God." In other words, Jesus was saying, ‘Upon the rock-mass, which you, Peter, confess, I will build my congregation.’

Stuff and nonsense. That is your own man-made interpretation to suit your own agenda. Consider:

Matthew 16:18:
"And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."

Now, we know the man's name was Simon bar Jonah, and here we have him named 'Peter', "Cephas, meaning 'rock' ... and it's upon that rock ... that is Peter ... that He will build His Church.

Not Jesus says "I will build my Church" ... on Peter, by implication ... which means the Petrine Church is Christ's Church ... all others are counterfeit.

Otherwise you are saying Jesus introduced 'cephas' as a purely spurious and meaningless point, the only possible reason being to render the Scriptures unintelligible ... why introduce the name 'rock' attached to Simon bar Jonah at all, if not to make a point that it is Peter on which the Church is founded?

+++

In fact Christ says these words in response to Peter's confession which, as Christ says, could only have been revealed by God. So Christ will build His Church on the Revelation given by God to Peter ...

Matthew 16:17
"Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven."
Note Simon is blessed by God with this knowing ... so Jesus treats this as a signal of His Father's doing ... it is His Father's will ...

Originally Posted by mee

That the apostles did not understand Jesus’ statement to signify that Peter was the rock-mass is evident from the fact that they later disputed about who seemed to be the greatest among them. (Mr 9:33-35; Lu 22:24-26) There would have been no basis for such disputing had Peter been given the primacy as the rock-mass on which the congregation was to be built.

And the Apostles were the first to admit they often did not know or understand the implication of what He said to them.

Originally Posted by mee

The Scriptures clearly show that as foundation stones, all the apostles are equal.

Well clearly they do not as it is evident in Acts and the Epistles that Peter was considered 'first amongst equals' ...

Originally Posted by mee

All of them, including Peter, rest upon Christ Jesus as the foundation cornerstone.

Of course, it is Our Lord's Church after all, it does not belong to them, it was entrusted to Peter, and to them.

Thomas

[path_of_one]

Originally Posted by BlaznFattyz

im a vampire and a christian and i believe that my views on death, disease and natural disasters are influenced by my living for thousands of years and seeing lots of religious stuff. so i would say that im in some esotoric minority but i believe in God, i just like to bite people, but i was born that way i didnt choose it.

Are you poking fun at me, Blazyn? Because I chuckled, but would much prefer you just tell me directly what you are thinking. I am not in some "esoteric minority." The indigenous religions of my ancestors affected Christianity considerably in how it was expressed early on in the Celtic lands (hence, Celtic Christianity) and you can still see many of the impacts to the Episcopalian and Anglican church today. Furthermore, the modern Druid movement was started by Christians and still has a considerable number of Christians in it today.

I know a lot of Christians who see death and disease as an enemy and evil. I also know a lot of them that don't. I don't claim any sort of special knowledge about anything, but like everyone I have my beliefs that are a result of my experience of God, reading the Bible, reading other Christian writers, and comparing these things to other religious texts and practices. There is nothing "hidden" (esoteric) about it. The stuff I read and practice is out there for anyone to look at, should they get interested. It's nothing earth-shattering- I just worship God in a way that incorporates loving and caring for the Earth and all beings.

Haven't a clue what the vampire reference is about, but I guess it's just for humorous value.

[mee]

Originally Posted by Thomas

Stuff and nonsense. That is your own man-made interpretation to suit your own agenda. Consider:



Thomas

all spirit-begotten followers of Christ are equally stonelike, with Jesus as their foundation cornerstone.—1 Corinthians 10:4; Ephesians 2:19-22; Revelation 21:2, 9-14.


It is also of interest that Augustine (354-430 C.E.), usually referred to as "Saint Augustine," at one time believed that Peter was the rock-mass but later changed his view. Lange’s Commentary on the Holy Scriptures (Mt 16:18, ftn, p. 296) quotes Augustine as saying: "The rock is not so named from Peter, but Peter from the rock (non enim a Petro petra, sed Petrus a petra), even as Christ is not so called after the Christian, but the Christian after Christ. For the reason why the Lord says, ‘On this rock I will build my church,’ is that Peter had said: ‘Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.’ On this rock, which thou hast confessed, says he, I will build my church. For Christ was the rock (petra enim erat Christus), upon which also Peter himself was built; for other foundation can no man lay, than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ."—Translated and edited by P. Schaff, 1976.

[Thomas]

Mee —

I think your interpretation of Jesus referring to Himself when He talks of the rock makes no sense in the context of the Scripture. As ever, pulling a verse here and there out of the whole enables one to argue anything one likes.

But more significantly, Matthew 16:19:
"And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven."
That gives Peter authority in Our Lord's name on earth (and indeed in heaven).

And again: Ephesians 2:20:
Built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone.

No-one argues that Jesus is the head of the Church, and the Church is His Mystical Body ... but the text is plain that authority over the Church is granted to the Apostles and their successors.

Thomas

[mee]

The combined testimony of the Scriptures thus makes it clear that Jesus, the one whom Peter acknowledged as "the Christ, the Son of the living God," is the rock-mass. It is on him that the congregation is built, with the apostles, including Peter, serving as a secondary foundation.

[Thomas]

Hi Mee -

I see you go on to repeat your point, without addressing any of the issues i have raised.

Originally Posted by mee

The combined testimony of the Scriptures thus makes it clear that Jesus, the one whom Peter acknowledged as "the Christ, the Son of the living God," is the rock-mass.

Well obviously it does not, because that is a very idiosyncratic interpretation held by your tradition alone, the tradition of men ... so the implication is that the error lies with you.

On the other hand, I have the testimony of the saints and sages who interpret the text according to the Tradition of the Apostles, to whom the Word of Scripture, and its transmission, was entrusted by Our Lord.

The closing of the Gospels states it plainly:

Matthew 28:19-20
"Going therefore, teach ye all nations: baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost. Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you. And behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world."
This to the Apostles

Mark 16:15
"And he said to them: Go ye into the whole world and preach the gospel to every creature."
This to the Apostles

Luke 24:44, 49
"And he said to them: These are the words which I spoke to you while I was yet with you, that all things must needs be fulfilled which are written in the law of Moses and in the prophets and in the psalms, concerning me. Then he opened their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures ... And I send the promise of my Father upon you... "
This to the Apostles ... note that Christ opens their understanding ... so I would suggest if you want the true interpretation of Scripture, look to the Petrine Office — any other that does not accord with this is counterfeit.

John 21:15-17
"When therefore they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter: Simon, son of John, lovest thou me more than these? He saith to him: Yea, Lord, thou knowest that I love thee. He saith to him: Feed my lambs. He saith to him again: Simon, son of John, lovest thou me? He saith to him: yea, Lord, thou knowest that I love thee. He saith to him: Feed my lambs. He said to him the third time: Simon, son of John, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he had said to him the third time: Lovest thou me? And he said to him: Lord, thou knowest all things: thou knowest that I love thee. He said to him: Feed my sheep."

Need I say more?

Thomas

[mee]

Originally Posted by Thomas

The closing of the Gospels states it plainly:

Matthew 28:19-20
"Going therefore, teach ye all nations: baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost. Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you. And behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world."
This to the Apostles

Mark 16:15
"And he said to them: Go ye into the whole world and preach the gospel to every creature."
This to the Apostles

Luke 24:44, 49
"And he said to them: These are the words which I spoke to you while I was yet with you, that all things must needs be fulfilled which are written in the law of Moses and in the prophets and in the psalms, concerning me. Then he opened their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures ... And I send the promise of my Father upon you... "
This to the Apostles ... note that Christ opens their understanding ... so I would suggest if you want the true interpretation of Scripture, look to the Petrine Office — any other that does not accord with this is counterfeit.

John 21:15-17
"When therefore they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter: Simon, son of John, lovest thou me more than these? He saith to him: Yea, Lord, thou knowest that I love thee. He saith to him: Feed my lambs. He saith to him again: Simon, son of John, lovest thou me? He saith to him: yea, Lord, thou knowest that I love thee. He saith to him: Feed my lambs. He said to him the third time: Simon, son of John, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he had said to him the third time: Lovest thou me? And he said to him: Lord, thou knowest all things: thou knowest that I love thee. He said to him: Feed my sheep."

Need I say more?

Thomas

very true indeed , those words were spoken to the followers of christ and then Jesus went back to heaven, in fact the last thing Jesus said was in matthew 28;19-20

and when he came into kingdom power in 1914,(inline with bible prophecy and chronology) he shortly after inspected to see how things were going , what did he find ? there were many ones who claimed to be doing his will and claiming to be teachers of the bible , but what did he find ?

he found that many had been misled just as he had foretold , and those who claimed to represent him had infact taken on many babylonish teachings and had made the word of God invalid.

so then who really are the faithful ones , who are really doing what Jesus taught and commanded .


Jesus was ready to give them lots more responsibility if they were doing it the right way , and he would also feed them lots of good spiritual food and the true knowledge would become even more abundant. and Jesus has chosen the ones that were faithful .

matthew 24;45-47 Daniel 12;4 getting back to what Jesus REALLY taught is the way to go , and in this time of the end the command from Jesus is to GET OUT OF HER ( the worldwide empire of false religion) revelation 18;4


and a GREAT CROWD from all nations are heeding that command and here they are spoken of in revelation 7;9-10 it seems that those who thought they were the ones , were not the ones at all, and there is a big change around .

pure worship is around . and there is no adultarating and manmade dogmas in sight. matthew 24;45-47

[Thomas]

Originally Posted by mee

so then who really are the faithful ones , who are really doing what Jesus taught and commanded.

Catholic and Orthodox, first up, the ones who can demonstrate a continuous tradition of adherence to Scripture ... than as time goes on, man moves closer and closer to his own ideas, reinterprets Scripture to suit himself ...

Originally Posted by mee

getting back to what Jesus REALLY taught is the way to go , and in this time of the end the command from Jesus is to GET OUT OF HER ( the worldwide empire of false religion) revelation 18;4

I know! You guys and your new-fangled interpretations ... but will you listen, Mee?

Originally Posted by mee

... and there is no adultarating and manmade dogmas in sight ...

Like this 1914 thing?

Thomas

[mee]

Originally Posted by Thomas

Catholic and Orthodox, first up, the ones who can demonstrate a continuous tradition of adherence to Scripture ... than as time goes on, man moves closer and closer to his own ideas, reinterprets Scripture to suit himself ...


I know! You guys and your new-fangled interpretations ... but will you listen, Mee?


Like this 1914 thing?

Thomas

ok ,as this thread is about the trinity, Jesus did not teach the trinity, but many have taken on manmade things which have there roots in babylonish teachings and the trinity is just one of those teachings, plus the immortality of the human soul . and as we all know those teachings are rife in christendom.


but they do not want to give these babylonish teachings up ,they are happy to be contaminated with manmade doctrines .


when Jesus came to inspect he could have chosen any of the ones claiming to be Gods followers of the bible , but he chose the ones that were sincere about getting things right inline with the bible .

and i am glad to say that the 1914 date is inline with bible prophecy and chronology, and the understanding is very abundant in this time of the end Daniel 12;4 and yes the understanding is being revealed to those who Jesus is feeding matthew 24;45-47 .


yes Gods people do not go hungary in a spiritual way ,they are full to the brim with understanding , and it is all bible based good food .

but i think most people can see that the ones who are in darkness with no enlightenment at all are just going their own way, and casting the bible aside.

its more a case of going along with what the world wants ,rather than sticking to the bible and its teachings .

so Jehovahs people(the great crowd revelation7;9-10 do not listen to those that are not inline with the bible they listen to the channel Jesus is feeding matthew 24;45-47 and it is very good

[Thomas]

Originally Posted by mee

ok ,as this thread is about the trinity, Jesus did not teach the trinity,

Yes He did ... you just don't understand. There is Father, there is the Son, and there is another ...

John 14:16
"And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Paraclete, that he may abide with you for ever"
(my emphasis)

John 14:26
"But the Paraclete, who is the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you."
Note also the Father sends in the name of the Son

John 15:26
"But when the Paraclete is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, [even] the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me"

John 16:7
"Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Paraclete will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you"

If you would only listen, you would understand.

Originally Posted by mee

but many have taken on manmade things which have there roots in babylonish teachings and the trinity is just one of those teachings ...

Not so, and it shows how clouded your hearts are that you cannot see it, so full of your own self-justification ... so quick to condemn...

Originally Posted by mee

when Jesus came to inspect he could have chosen any of the ones claiming to be Gods followers of the bible , but he chose the ones that were sincere about getting things right inline with the bible .

Yep. The ones who don't invent spurious and ill-founded prophecies.

Originally Posted by mee

and i am glad to say that the 1914 date is inline with bible prophecy and chronology, and the understanding is very abundant in this time of the end Daniel 12;4 and yes the understanding is being revealed to those who Jesus is feeding matthew 24;45-47.

OK. Show me where it says 1914. And if it doesn't, please explain how this is not a manmade doctrine.

Originally Posted by mee

but i think most people can see that the ones who are in darkness with no enlightenment at all are just going their own way, and casting the bible aside...

... its more a case of going along with what the world wants ,rather than sticking to the bible and its teachings...

But Mee, that's precisely what your people did!

Thomas