Trinity

[Thomas]

Originally Posted by wil

Actually if I worked at it I'd probably find hundreds, none of which you'd accept though.

If you can find ten — scholars by peer recognition — who say that the verse you cite indicates that man is by nature divine, I'd be surprised.

The metaphysical point is that the Tradition is monotheistic — There is but one God. How then does Scripture refer to gods? Take the start of the Psalm (82):
"God standeth in the congregation of the gods (mighty in the KJV); he judgeth among the gods." (KJV).

The second use of the word 'god/mighty' is the Hebrew el by which the gods were known in the region. The common exegesis of this text is, among others, that the 'mighty/gods' referred to indicate the gods of the neighbours of the Jews.

The first (singular) and third (plural) uses the Hebrew elohiym which refers primarily to the One True God (in the singular) and gods, judges, a goddess (twice), the great, the mighty, and angels — so again, context is all.

In this instance the common understanding is that God is present with the lawmakers of Israel. Any other supposes polytheism.

Originally Posted by wil

Actually I think it is G!d's choice and he has determined that we all return, no matter how many lives it takes.

Well again you depart radically from Scripture which says that we have but one life ("And as it is appointed unto men once to die, and after this the judgment" Hebrews 5:27) ... but here I assume you go with your Buddhist inclination?

But you make my point. It is God's choice, through His Son that we return, not through us — "for without me you can do nothing." (John 15:5)
So without Christ we are helpless to help ourselves ... so Christ is not 'us' in the sense that He is common to human nature. Rather He unites our human nature to His own divine nature. What was given to man in the spirit, he lost, so God gave Himself in the flesh, in the Person of His only Son, so that man — that is human nature — man's 'original formation', to quote Irenaeus, is reconstituted anew.

Christ took on human nature to redeem that fallen nature to Himself — "God became man" Irenaeus said, "that man, having been taken into the Word, and receiving the adoption, might become the son of God", echoing St Paul in Romans 5 and 1 Corinthians 15. And to repeat another Patristic maxim, "that which is not assumed is not saved", by which we can see that man is assumed into God ... man does not realise the essential truth of himself as being divine.

How can He? God is One, and by Him all things are made. We are made, but a made thing does not possess the same nature as the maker. If God made man of Himself, then either man cannot err, being perfect — or as all the evidence tells us that we do, then if we are God then God can err too, in which case He is not perfect, and by virtue of that, is not God — as that which is God suffers no impediment or imperfection to its being.

God instills His nature in us, yes ... but it is a charism and a gift, it is not ours nor our possession, as we do not own it, we are not the source of it, nor can we determine its, or our own, end.

We can however, lose it.

This grace is not an object. It is a relationship — and the offence was ours, against our Maker, in which we rejected His will in favour of our own. We gave up His good favour, and without it "we can do nothing", as we have learned to our cost. Try as we might, do what we will, God is under no obligation to forgive. He does so, because He chooses to.

Only in Him can we be healed of the wound, the blindness with which we are afflicted. Only He can restore our sight, because He can reveal Himself to us, we cannot unveil Him, as it were, through our own efforts. Only God can forgive sin ... we cannot justify ourselves, without seeking Him.

The mortal cannot know immortality, no more can man know God, but in the life of the Holy Spirit, that life in us incorporates us into life in Him.

You talk of Christ as something distinct from the man Jesus, as something common to humanity. A facet of human nature. And yet Scripture talks of Christ as utterly other than the created order, He was before all ... and by Him all things consist (Colossians). Such texts make it impossible to locate Christ as intrinsic to human nature, whereas the same texts assert that the nature that is Christ and the nature that is Jesus are two natures in one Person — the unique Person of the Incarnation of God.

Thomas

[wil]

Originally Posted by thomas

In this instance the common understanding is that God is present with the lawmakers of Israel. Any other supposes polytheism.

So when Jesus said it, he was referring to polytheism?

[BlaznFattyz]

Originally Posted by wil

So when Jesus said it, he was referring to polytheism?

That was John 10:34 which is a quote from Psalm 82:6. In John 10:30, Jesus had claimed to be one with God and the Pharisees got upset with Him and wanted to kill Him. He defended His position by quoting Psalm 82:6. In that Psalm, God is mocking the religious leaders of the day who had the power of life and death over their subjects. God says in the very next verse, "Nevertheless, you will die like men."

[Dream]

Consider that Jesus left us with no center -- no one standing in our midst to become an idol to us.

Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD:

Isaiah 29:13 The Lord says: “These people come near to me with their mouth and honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. Their worship of me is made up only of rules taught by men. Therefore once more I will astound these people with wonder upon wonder; the wisdom of the wise will perish, the intelligence of the intelligent will vanish.”

Isa 40:3-5 A voice of one calling: “In the desert prepare the way for the Lord; make straight in the wilderness a highway for our God. Every valley shall be raised up, every mountain and hill made low; the rough ground shall become level, the rugged places a plain. And the glory of the Lord will be revealed, and all mankind together will see it. For the mouth of the Lord has spoken.”

Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high [places].


John 6:43-46 “Stop grumbling among yourselves,” Jesus answered. “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me. No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.

And many more....

[Thomas]

Originally Posted by Dream

Consider that Jesus left us with no center

Whoa! That's a personal opinion, and one that I and many others do not share. The lives of the saints are a witness to His presence. Consider rather that Jesus is your center ...

In my life's experience, He's been and is there for me more often than I've been there for Him.

Thomas

[wil]

Originally Posted by thomas from another thread

so perhaps in heaven, all will be of the one Mystical Body

That's what I'm talking about. Omnipresence. Like my little toe is part of me, I am part of G!d. As you can't seperate the wave from the ocean we can't seperate humanity from G!d. We and the Father are one. Today, no waiting for heaven, just understanding.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by wil

So when Jesus said it, he was referring to polytheism?

No, he was referring to the demi gods (the fallen) who had conveniently placed themselves in positions of godlike power over the neighbors of the Hebrews. Hence the point "gods" as in little gods, above man but below the supreme being, created not omnipresent, omniscient, nor omnipotent.
Indeed, Jacob wrestled one such being to a standstill, and held him all night, despite a dislocated hip...not so much above man I suspect.

[wil]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

No, he was referring to the demi gods (the fallen) who had conveniently placed themselves in positions of godlike power over the neighbors of the Hebrews. Hence the point "gods" as in little gods, above man but below the supreme being, created not omnipresent, omniscient, nor omnipotent.
Indeed, Jacob wrestled one such being to a standstill, and held him all night, despite a dislocated hip...not so much above man I suspect.

It sure doesn't look like Jesus is referring to any demigods...looks like to me he is referring to the prophets. And you think Jacob was wrestling a demigod at the river? Interesting interpretation.

John10

31Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, 32but Jesus said to them, "I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?"
33"We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God." 34Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods'[e]? 35If he called them 'gods,' to whom the word of God came—and the Scripture cannot be broken— 36what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'?

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by wil

It sure doesn't look like Jesus is referring to any demigods...looks like to me he is referring to the prophets. And you think Jacob was wrestling a demigod at the river? Interesting interpretation.

To anyone who knew not God, an angel would be a powerful persuasion towards divinity...

Two "known" races. Human and Angelic. Unlike gods, man has beaten angels, and been beaten by angels.

Man nor angel has ever beaten "God"...unless you know something the rest of us don't?

[Dream]

Originally Posted by Thomas

Whoa! That's a personal opinion, and one that I and many others do not share. The lives of the saints are a witness to His presence. Consider rather that Jesus is your center ...

Of course right now it is just my little opinion, and on the low to high scale my opinion impacts very few while the opinion of religious authorities or traditions currently impacts very many; but soon the impacts of each will be the same. It is because "Every valley will be raised up, every mountain and hill made low," because "The wisdom of the wise will perish," and because it is human wisdom that says a tradition could preserve truth, righteousness, love, or wisdom. In my tiny opinion (which represents the valley) it is God's intent to publicly repudiate this wisdom (representing the mountains). Perhaps this is what really bothered people most people about John the Baptist's preaching, and why he was persecuted. Anyway, it doesn't matter if some religious authorities insist upon trinity, especially now that their opinion is being brought down and made equal with any common man's.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Dream

Of course right now it is just my little opinion, and on the low to high scale my opinion impacts very few while the opinion of religious authorities or traditions currently impacts very many; but soon the impacts of each will be the same. It is because "Every valley will be raised up, every mountain and hill made low," because "The wisdom of the wise will perish," and because it is human wisdom that says a tradition could preserve truth, righteousness, love, or wisdom. In my tiny opinion (which represents the valley) it is God's intent to publicly repudiate this wisdom (representing the mountains). Perhaps this is what really bothered people most people about John the Baptist's preaching, and why he was persecuted. Anyway, it doesn't matter if some religious authorities insist upon trinity, especially now that their opinion is being brought down and made equal with any common man's.

uh, Jesus also spoke of the Saints...remember? So your opinion will refute his statement of apparent fact? I seriously have doubts about that.

[wil]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

To anyone who knew not God, an angel would be a powerful persuasion towards divinity...

Two "known" races. Human and Angelic. Unlike gods, man has beaten angels, and been beaten by angels.

Man nor angel has ever beaten "God"...unless you know something the rest of us don't?

While there are many interpretations of Jacob's wrestling match, I've just never heard of the demigod one. I think he was wrestling with himself, it was an argument in his mind.

I still don't see Jesus referring to any demigods when he was challenged either, I'd love to hear more about both.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by wil

While there are many interpretations of Jacob's wrestling match, I've just never heard of the demigod one. I think he was wrestling with himself, it was an argument in his mind.

I still don't see Jesus referring to any demigods when he was challenged either, I'd love to hear more about both.

Not what the Bible says wil. It says he wrestled with an angel of the Lord, until the morning light. That is pretty specific.

I don't worry about your seeing anything in the Christian forum. You just like to spelunk and see what pops up. I find it amusing.

v/r

Q

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by Dream

Of course right now it is just my little opinion, and on the low to high scale my opinion impacts very few while the opinion of religious authorities or traditions currently impacts very many; but soon the impacts of each will be the same. It is because "Every valley will be raised up, every mountain and hill made low," because "The wisdom of the wise will perish," and because it is human wisdom that says a tradition could preserve truth, righteousness, love, or wisdom. In my tiny opinion (which represents the valley) it is God's intent to publicly repudiate this wisdom (representing the mountains). Perhaps this is what really bothered people most people about John the Baptist's preaching, and why he was persecuted. Anyway, it doesn't matter if some religious authorities insist upon trinity, especially now that their opinion is being brought down and made equal with any common man's.

Matt 13:24-30
24 Another parable He put forth to them, saying: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field; 25 but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat and went his way. 26 But when the grain had sprouted and produced a crop, then the tares also appeared. 27 So the servants of the owner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’ 28 He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ The servants said to him, ‘Do you want us then to go and gather them up?’ 29 But he said, ‘No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.”’”

The tares were to be allowed to grow with the wheat, to avoid uprooting the wheat....

[Thomas]

Hi Wil —

Originally Posted by wil

That's what I'm talking about. Omnipresence.

But that is God's not ours ... and it is obvious that God's omnipresence does not preserve man from evil, or pursuing the path of his own extinction.

Originally Posted by wil

Like my little toe is part of me, I am part of G!d.

No. That's metaphysically and philosophically unsound. In a Christian sense you once again confuse nature and grace and claim as your by right what is given as a gift ... pride again ... your toe is part of your human nature. God is not part of human nature.

Your doctrine is pantheism, or panentheism, but it is not Christian. You are of this world, Christ is not, and God is not. God made the world, but the world is not God, which is what you're saying. God is utterly other than the world, and distinct from it. If the whole created Kosmos ceased to exist, God would not be altered by one iota.

Originally Posted by wil

As you can't seperate the wave from the ocean we can't seperate humanity from G!d.

See above. You can't separate the wave because the 'wave' is just a movement of the 'ocean' — but humanity is not a property of the Deity.

Originally Posted by wil

We and the Father are one. Today, no waiting for heaven, just understanding.

Well patently not, because if that were so we would be fully conscious in the Beatific Vision ... but as we are still bound by darkness, still this side of the veil, then if you believe what you say, you have a very low expectation of heaven.

As Scripture says, Jesus Christ and the Father are one — but He is from above, we are from below; He is not of this world, we are ... and it is His prayer that we also might be one with them ... but that is obviously not a given, but dependent upon what we do with what we're given.

And reinterpreting it to suit ourselves is not acceptable.

And surely the supreme point is not that we understand that we should love God and our neighbour, but that we should ... the difference is in knowing what to do, and doing it.

Thomas