Trinity - Page 8

Joedjr · 02-18-2008, 12:39 AM

Hi,
Some things I have read, of course from the NASB.

John 4:
25:The woman said to Him, "I know that Messiah is coming (He who is called Christ); when that One comes, He will declare all things to us."
26:Jesus said to Her "I who speak to you am He"

Mark 14
60:The high priest stood up and came forward and questioned Jesus, saying, "Do You not answer? What is it that these men are testifying against You?"
61:But He kept silent and did not answer. Again the high priest was questioning Him, and saying to Him, "Are You the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?"
62:And Jesus said, "I am; and you shall see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven."

One thing I have not read is this quote "I am G!d" or "I am the Father".
Indicating that Jesus thinks that He is G!d. He claims to have a special relationship with G!d and shows that He has been granted power from G!d.
If this is something I have overlooked, I would greatly appreciate someone supplying the passage. Bible quotes only, with wording indicating that Jesus thought He is G!d. Please nothing that I would need "a leap of faith" to understand. thanks
Joe

Pico · 02-18-2008, 02:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joedjr

One thing I have not read is this quote "I am G!d" or "I am the Father".
Indicating that Jesus thinks that He is G!d. He claims to have a special relationship with G!d and shows that He has been granted power from G!d.
If this is something I have overlooked, I would greatly appreciate someone supplying the passage. Bible quotes only, with wording indicating that Jesus thought He is G!d. Please nothing that I would need "a leap of faith" to understand. thanks
Joe

Because Jesus is not the Father, he is the Son. Here's some passages from the NIV transation:

John 8:18
"I am one who testifies for myself; my other witness is the Father, who sent me."

John 8:54
Jesus replied, "If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me.

John 10:36
"what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'?

John 10:28-30
"I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are one."

John 14:21
"Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him."

Joedjr · 02-18-2008, 02:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pico

Because Jesus is not the Father, he is the Son. Here's some passages from the NIV transation:

John 8:18
"I am one who testifies for myself; my other witness is the Father, who sent me."

John 8:54
Jesus replied, "If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me.

John 10:36
"what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'?

John 10:28-30
"I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are one."

John 14:21
"Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him."

Hi Pico,
So from your reading of John, you say the Father and the Son are the same being or the Son is a lessor being?
Joe

Pico · 02-18-2008, 03:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joedjr

Hi Pico,
So from your reading of John, you say the Father and the Son are the same being or the Son is a lessor being?
Joe

I didn't say all that. Jesus said that him and the father are one. But he said that the fater was greater than him. They are one in nature, but the Father has the greater position. Jesus fully submitted himself to the Father's will.

Quahom1 · 02-18-2008, 04:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lecter

Did Jesus according to the gospels say that he was temporarily putting away his godhead? Why can't you say the same about Moses? Maybe Moses never says he is god because he only becomes God after death...

See what I mean?

The truth is Jesus never makes such a claim in the gospel.

Jesus tells him he is going to send them another comforter because if he does not leave he will not come. However according to the scripture the holy spirit was already there, so he could not have been talking about the holy spirit. He was talking about someone else, especially because he refers to the comforter as he and not it.

With that said, what does that have to do with anything?

Because Moses never claimed anything close to being God. In fact, according to scripture, he gave up any attempt to enter the promised land, before his death.

Written word is wothless, unless it can be read. And Moses never becomes God.

Jesus never said he put away his god head, my friend, but the old testament explains quite clearly how and what and why and who.

mee · 02-18-2008, 08:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pico

some crazy three-in-one relationship is going on here it seems

it seems so ,

it is a very big confusion indeed.

just as ancient babylon was , so BABYLON THE GREAT is, REVELATION 18;4 .

There is a devastation upon her waters, and they must be dried up. For it is a land of graven images, and because of [their] frightful visions they keep acting crazy.JEREMIAH 50;38

mee · 02-18-2008, 08:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pico

I didn't say all that. Jesus said that him and the father are one. But he said that the fater was greater than him. They are one in nature, but the Father has the greater position. Jesus fully submitted himself to the Father's will.

I and the Father are one."JOHN 10;30

Or, "at unity." Lit., "one (thing)." Gr., hen, neuter, to show oneness in cooperation.

Thomas · 02-18-2008, 03:04 PM

Hi Joe —

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joedjr

Mark 14
61:But He kept silent and did not answer. Again the high priest was questioning Him, and saying to Him, "Are You the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?"
62:And Jesus said, "I am; and you shall see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven."

One thing I have not read is this quote "I am G!d" or "I am the Father".

Well He said "I am in the Father and the Father is in me" and he said "No-one has seen God except the Son, who reveals Him" and "He who has seen me has seen the Father" — which is the same as saying "If you see me, you see God." ... and not "If you see me, you see God in me."

The point is not how you understand what he said, but how the Jews understood what He said, and the above verse, and many others, are explicit claims to Divinity. When the High Priest asked the question, he was not asking 'are you a prophet?' but 'are you God?' — to which Jesus answers yes.

If you know the text from Daniel, to which Jesus refers, there can be little doubt that He is claiming Divine Authority.

Likewise when He said "Jesus said to them: Amen, amen, I say to you, before Abraham was made, I AM." John 8:58, was a direct claim to divinity. Now many will dispute this on linguistic and technical grounds, on the problem of traslating from Hebrew/Aramaic to Greek to English ... but two points should be borne in mind, one is that you have to read the verse in the context of the discourse (which critics tend to ignore), and the second being when He said these words, "They took up stones therefore to cast at him" (John 8:59) — so if the phrase was as innocuous as Biblical critics would argue, that's not how His audience received it.

You are right in saying that Jesus claimed a 'special relationship' with God, but such a statement would not wash in His own time, only in current relativistic times can we make such statements which imply everything but mean nothing.

Israel is quite clear about relations with the Divine, and Jesus overstepped the mark time and time again ... to say "I forgive you" assumes He has taken the divine authority to Himself, likewise to say "believe in me" is nothing short of setting Himself up as a God — and the laws says you will have only one God ...

... so whilst the modern day critic can interpret the word of Scripture to mean anything one likes, in context, in Sitz im Leben (in time and place, in the setting of events) the messgae, and the implication, is unmistakable.

Thomas

Joedjr · 02-19-2008, 01:56 AM

Hi Thomas,
This will be somewhat of a quick response to the points you have raised.
And thanks for raising them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas

Well He said "I am in the Father and the Father is in me" and he said "No-one has seen God except the Son, who reveals Him" and "He who has seen me has seen the Father" — which is the same as saying "If you see me, you see God." ... and not "If you see me, you see God in me."

My leanings for these quotes tends more toward the influence of the Holy Spirit. "I am in the Father and the Father is in me" - Most claim this a unity not so much as the same person.

Quote:

The point is not how you understand what he said, but how the Jews understood what He said, and the above verse, and many others, are explicit claims to Divinity. When the High Priest asked the question, he was not asking 'are you a prophet?' but 'are you God?' — to which Jesus answers yes.

When read from Mark 14:61-62, my understanding is that Jesus is referring to the messiah, which the Jews were waiting for.

Quote:

If you know the text from Daniel, to which Jesus refers, there can be little doubt that He is claiming Divine Authority.

Don't know.

Quote:

Likewise when He said "Jesus said to them: Amen, amen, I say to you, before Abraham was made, I AM." John 8:58, was a direct claim to divinity. Now many will dispute this on linguistic and technical grounds, on the problem of traslating from Hebrew/Aramaic to Greek to English ... but two points should be borne in mind, one is that you have to read the verse in the context of the discourse (which critics tend to ignore), and the second being when He said these words, "They took up stones therefore to cast at him" (John 8:59) — so if the phrase was as innocuous as Biblical critics would argue, that's not how His audience received it.

looking around, NIV, Moffatt, Tyndales, Challoner-Rheims, RSV, NRSV, NASB all have I am, the am being in lower case. The only one with uppercase is NAB. I don't have a problem with preexistence of the Word. Sometimes I think John is referring to Jesus as the perfect Torah.

Quote:

You are right in saying that Jesus claimed a 'special relationship' with God, but such a statement would not wash in His own time, only in current relativistic times can we make such statements which imply everything but mean nothing.

Israel is quite clear about relations with the Divine, and Jesus overstepped the mark time and time again ... to say "I forgive you" assumes He has taken the divine authority to Himself, likewise to say "believe in me" is nothing short of setting Himself up as a God — and the laws says you will have only one God ...

The Law does say there is only one G!d, I personally desire to be in the right place.

Quote:

... so whilst the modern day critic can interpret the word of Scripture to mean anything one likes, in context, in Sitz im Leben (in time and place, in the setting of events) the messgae, and the implication, is unmistakable.

Thomas

If I remember right the whole bible was written by Jews except Luke, for the Jews at that time. Down through the ages men have interpreted the bible a great deal. Maybe it comes down to what you can see and with whom you want to align yourself.

thanks
Joe

Thomas · 02-19-2008, 02:07 PM

Hi Joe —

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joedjr

My leanings for these quotes tends more toward the influence of the Holy Spirit. "I am in the Father and the Father is in me" - Most claim this a unity not so much as the same person.

Well that assumes a Trinitarian operation ... one which signifies the distinction of the Three Persons, but affirms their essential consubstantiality. But that is not how His audience would have received the message, and that's the point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joedjr

When read from Mark 14:61-62, my understanding is that Jesus is referring to the messiah, which the Jews were waiting for.

Yes — but He is claiming that He is the Messiah, and more.

Mark 14:61-64
"Again the high priest asked him and said to him: Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed God? And Jesus said to him: I am. And you shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of the power of God and coming with the clouds of heaven. Then the high priest rending his garments, saith: What need we any further witnesses? You have heard the blasphemy. What think you? Who all condemned him to be guilty of death."

Daniel 7:13
"I beheld, therefore, in the vision of the night, and lo, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and he came even to the ancient of days: and they presented him before him."

Jesus' reference to Daniel signifies that He is the Son of Man spoken of in prophecy. This is why He was accused of blasphemy.

The 'Messianic Secret' of Mark is simply that Jesus referred to Himself as 'the Son of Man' precisely because the title could be read in different ways — it was a sensible strategem. In the same way he told His disciples not to proclaim His divinity because, as soon as they did, He would be arrested. Interestingly, in Scripture only Satan and the demons refer to Jesus as 'Son of God' without question.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joedjr

looking around, NIV, Moffatt, Tyndales, Challoner-Rheims, RSV, NRSV, NASB all have I am, the am being in lower case. The only one with uppercase is NAB.

The original Greek does not distinguish between upper and lower case. I don't think He spoke incapital letters, either!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joedjr

Down through the ages men have interpreted the bible a great deal.

Indeed ... I would tend to say the trend of interpretation down through the ages is the inceasing effort on man's part to 'explain it away'.

Pax tecum

Thomas

Joedjr · 02-19-2008, 06:01 PM

Hi Thomas,

Quote:

Likewise when He said "Jesus said to them: Amen, amen, I say to you, before Abraham was made, I AM."

Since you used the caps on I AM, I assumed you were referring to this:
(Bible passages from the NASB.)

Exodus 3:
13:Then Moses said to G!d, "Behold, I am going to the sons of Israel, and I will say to them, 'The G!d of your fathers has sent me to you.' Now they may say to me, 'What is His name?' What shall I say to them?"
14:G!d said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM"; and He said, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you' "
15:G!d, furthermore, said to Moses, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'The Lord, the G!d of you father, the G!d of Abraham, the G!d of Jacob, has sent me to you.' This is My name forever, and this is MY memorial-name to all generations.

While I'm still out here in the OT,

Daniel 7:
13:"I kept looking in the night visions, and behold, with the clouds of heaven One like a Son of Man was coming, and He came up to the Ancient of Days and was presented before Him.
14:"And to him was given dominion, Glory and a kingdom, that all the peoples, nations and men of every language might serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion which will not pass away; and His kingdom is one which will not be destroyed.

I take the "Ancient of Days" to mean G!d here. In this vision there are 2 beings talked about.

Also in the Revelation 5 posted above there is vision of 2 distinct beings One giving the book and One receiving.

6:And I saw between the throne (with the four living creatures) and the elders a Lamb standing, as if slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of G!d, sent out into all the earth.
7:And He came and took the book out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne.

Quote:

The 'Messianic Secret' of Mark is simply that Jesus referred to Himself as 'the Son of Man' precisely because the title could be read in different ways — it was a sensible strategem. In the same way he told His disciples not to proclaim His divinity because, as soon as they did, He would be arrested. Interestingly, in Scripture only Satan and the demons refer to Jesus as 'Son of God' without question.

Through out the Gospels, Jesus asks people "not tell anyone". I don't find the passage that refers to not being arrested. Could you supply it?

Quote:

The original Greek does not distinguish between upper and lower case. I don't think He spoke incapital letters, either!

Sometimes I think this would be better, the bible written with no caps. The reader would have to think a little more of what is being said, instead of being influenced by the translation that they are reading.

Quote:

Indeed ... I would tend to say the trend of interpretation down through the ages is the inceasing effort on man's part to 'explain it away'.

This very well may be true. Maybe some people don't feel they have "the rest of the story" and are looking.

Joe

mee · 02-19-2008, 06:04 PM

DO YOU say to me whom the Father sanctified and dispatched into the world, ‘You blaspheme,’ because I said, I am God’s Son? john 10;36

Jesus told them who he was , he was Gods son

Look! Also, there was a voice from the heavens that said: "This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved." matthew 3;17

And a voice came out of the cloud, saying: "This is my Son, the one that has been chosen. Listen to him.luke 9;35

they wouldnt listen would they

Thomas · 02-19-2008, 07:37 PM

Hi Joe —

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joedjr

Since you used the caps on I AM, I assumed you were referring to ... Exodus 3...

Well there are others, also. But basically I'm reading the whole text in context ... what led up to this statement, what instigated it, what was the response to it?

Of course, the text itself is disputed in its meaning, but all the dispute 'proves' is that there are any number of assumptions that can be made. From my own studies, once you isolate a verse from a chapter, from the book, from Scripture ... then its meaning is lost. I examine the pieces of the puzzle in light of the picture, as it were. You're not obliged to accept 'my' picture, but the picture I accept is the traditional one.

Today, of course, what matters most is one's own opinion ... whether there is any truth in that is immaterial.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joedjr

Through out the Gospels, Jesus asks people "not tell anyone". I don't find the passage that refers to not being arrested. Could you supply it?

That is my interpretation. Jesus continually asks people to keep quiet, and acts and speaks in public. Why? I think because He knows what He is saying, but He cannot guarantee what others might say ...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joedjr

Sometimes I think this would be better, the bible written with no caps. The reader would have to think a little more of what is being said, instead of being influenced by the translation that they are reading.

The reader would be better served by studying commentaries, rather than simply relying on his or her own insights. Not even the most staunch supporter of sola scriptura believed that anyone who read the bible would understand everything it had to say.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joedjr

This very well may be true. Maybe some people don't feel they have "the rest of the story" and are looking.

Really? Perhaps I have grown jaded in my years. I think most people today are looking for their own opinions to be affirmed.

The commentaries of tradition are breath-taking in their insight ... but try and find such commentaries in print ... look on the internet, and the world and his wife has an 'informed' opinion on what it means ... what I find most lacking is faith, and effort.

But that's just me ...

Thomas

Thomas · 02-19-2008, 08:36 PM

Hi Joe —

My response above is a bit jaded ... so I wanted to add something.

In my studies I have one text for clinical accuracy, another for commentary, another because of the poetry of the translation ... but the fact remains that the texts have produced saints and sages down through the ages, and its wisdom and insight has been applauded by the sages and scholars of many diverse traditions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joedjr

Maybe some people don't feel they have "the rest of the story" and are looking.

The 'rest of the story' that belongs with Scripture is Tradition ...

Thomas

Joedjr · 02-20-2008, 12:16 AM

Hi Thomas,
Again thanks for your responses. If you are trying to find some commentaries The sword project has a few. Maybe you already have these books . The SWORD Project I had most of what is on their site on another pc, but haven't rebuilt it on the current. I really enjoyed what they had to offer, but I find books easier to read than print on the pc.

Hmm, tradition, now that sounds like a whole new thread in the making.

Joe