Trinity? Stake Vs Cross Vs Tree

17th Angel · 12-21-2005, 03:41 PM

Who can offer me views, opinions, scriptures and history that back that Jesus was killed via;

stake
cross
tree

Also I would like to hear the importantce of the Trinity, Thanks!

Thomas · 12-22-2005, 12:03 PM

For a comprehensive answer to the cross, look here:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04517a.htm
This is a Catholic site so might be regarded as partisan (despite the plethora of non-Christian sources).

If you need more evidence, search 'archeology of the cross' or suchlike under Google.

Short answer:
The cross, as a means of execution, was used throughout the Roman empire. Never by the Jews, and rarely by the Greeks.

Its origin can be said to lie in the early practice of hanging from/on trees, but in Roman hands it became a terrifying method of torture. In basic form it was a stake set in the ground, to which the victim was obliged to carry the crossbar, which was then fixed to the upright. A message was sometimes fixed atop the upright detailing the offence.

It would seem the biblical account of the crucifixion describes the practice in its most common form; the victim was tried, condemned, flogged, made to carry the crossbar through a jeering crowd to the place of execution, then crucified.

The Trinity?
"The mystery of the Most Holy Trinity is the central mystery of Christian faith and life. It is the mystery of God in himself. It is therefore the source of all the other mysteries of faith, the light that enlightens them. It is the most fundamental and essential teaching in the "hierarchy of the truths of faith". The whole history of salvation is identical with the history of the way and the means by which the one true God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, reveals himself to men "and reconciles and unites with himself those who turn away from sin".
Catechism of the Catholic Church, 234 (my emphasis)

Thomas

mansio · 12-22-2005, 12:37 PM

The Roman instrument of torture we call a cross wasn't a cross but a "T".
A stake was permanently fixed in the ground at the execution place and the convict came along with the top of the "T" to which he was nailed or attached. The beam and the convict were lifted up by attendants on each side and fixed to the upright stake by a mortice and tenon joint.

bob x · 12-22-2005, 05:44 PM

I am sure there were variants on the shape. But the conventional depiction would not have become the conventional depiction unless it was the most common shape. The specifics of that one particular execution are, of course, unknowable.

mansio · 12-22-2005, 06:14 PM

There may have been variants of shape although I have difficulties in imagining them.
The Romans weren't setting up crosses to follow an esthetical or Christian model, but only to put people to a slow death.
They wanted the crosses to be practical and efficient, as sometimes they had tens or hundreds of prisoners to put to death at the same time.

Quahom1 · 12-23-2005, 01:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mansio

The Roman instrument of torture we call a cross wasn't a cross but a "T".
A stake was permanently fixed in the ground at the execution place and the convict came along with the top of the "T" to which he was nailed or attached. The beam and the convict were lifted up by attendants on each side and fixed to the upright stake by a mortice and tenon joint.

Ah, but if the wood was in the shape of a "T" then a man could lean his head back over the T bar and bring air into his lungs. That was not the Roman way. The idea was total suffering, including suffication...slowly. Break the legs, and force a man to sag.

No, Romans didn't crucify criminals on "T" Bars. They made certain the head could not roll back and catch air.

v/r

Q

mansio · 12-23-2005, 01:47 PM

I didn't deny that there may have been other crosses than the T one.
The suffocation was not due to the position of the head but to the weight of the body on the arms that prevented breathing after a while. The convict had his feet fixed with nails, or ropes, plus a piece of wood on which he would push to release the straining of his arms to be able to breathe. Suffocation resulted from utter exhaustion of the convict when he no longer could push on his feet.
When the Romans had another group of people to crucify they would break the legs of the crucified to hasten their suffocation.

Quahom1 · 12-23-2005, 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mansio

I didn't deny that there may have been other crosses than the T one.
The suffocation was not due to the position of the head but to the weight of the body on the arms that prevented breathing after a while. The convict had his feet fixed with nails, or ropes, plus a piece of wood on which he would push to release the straining of his arms to be able to breathe. Suffocation resulted from utter exhaustion of the convict when he no longer could push on his feet.
When the Romans had another group of people to crucify they would break the legs of the crucified to hasten their suffocation.

Very true, however besides the thigh muscles, the neck muscles are some of the strongest in the body. By forcing the head to push against a plane, the neck can literally lift the body up. This causes the diaphragm to expand, providing oxygen. Even with broken legs a man could get the air he needed if his head was able to be used for leverage.

Shaping the cross like an X or a + however, would provide no such leverage. In short a man would drown in the fluid build up in the lungs.

v/r

Q

wil · 12-23-2005, 02:15 PM

Reading as this topic goes on....extensions of other threads, I suddenly came to a strange feeling...

Trinity
Tree Cross Stake
Father Son Holy Ghost

Don't know just contemplating....

17th Angel · 12-23-2005, 02:17 PM

Well,

I have kind of started a fight eh? Heh, Thanks alot for all your ideas and views and links. Will look into the Catholic links, Although (and no offense intended) The sites I have seen created by Catholics is just to aid and support their human Dogma and 'ways'.... Will look into it anywhoo.

17th Angel · 12-23-2005, 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wil

Reading as this topic goes on....extensions of other threads, I suddenly came to a strange feeling...

Trinity
Tree Cross Stake
Father Son Holy Ghost

Don't know just contemplating....

Maybe!!! Strange eh? haha.. Contemplating is always good I believe, doesn't hurt to think... well majority of people find it doesn't hurt to ponder. I have pains sometimes....

17th Angel · 12-23-2005, 02:30 PM

Site is interesting alot of information just going through it at the moment, one thing I would like to mention I browsed first scanning top to bottom and at the bottom it says as follows...

Papal Crucifix 8 inch $21.95
Catechism of Catholic Church - OSV HC / SC $29.95
St. Benedict Stained Cherry Crucifix - 10.5 inch $48.00
Catholicism for Dummies $21.99
SS Miraculous Medal on 24 inch chain $37.00
The Essential Catholic Handbook of the Sacraments $13.95
Daily Missal - 1962 Tridentine Rite (Latin Rite) Black / White Leather $54.95

.... and then,

The Chronicles of Narnia (Modern Cover) Boxed Set, SC $45.00

.. Is it just me? That strikes as odd??

Quahom1 · 12-23-2005, 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wil

Reading as this topic goes on....extensions of other threads, I suddenly came to a strange feeling...

Trinity
Tree Cross Stake
Father Son Holy Ghost

Don't know just contemplating....

...Dracula also comes to mind...

17th Angel · 12-23-2005, 02:32 PM

Why do Vampyres, allways sneak into a topic when I am present? Hmmm.

Quahom1 · 12-23-2005, 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

Why do Vampyres, allways sneak into a topic when I am present? Hmmm.

LOL

Here's link for you to ponder 17th:

http://www.catholic.com/library/New_...For_Rosary.asp

I'd look around the whole thing and not worry about the rosary stuff.

v/r

Q