Turn the Other Cheek - Page 3

17th Angel · 02-02-2007, 03:35 PM

Yes.

And yes.

pfw · 02-03-2007, 05:17 AM

Just to quote one of the fountains of all wisdom-Starship Troopers-'sheer naked agression has resolved more disputes than any other factor'. And who's to say the 'turn the other cheek' idea has to be passive- I remember seeing a TV film a long time ago were it was interpreted (visualy) as very agressive and intimidating, kind of like some one hits you, you get right in the guys face and say 'make you feel better?-Go on, hit me again', it was VERY agressive and intimidating, not at all passive or meek... Just a thought.

Prober · 02-03-2007, 02:46 PM

One story of the origin of this was...

A master would only hit his slave back-handed, usually with his right hand.
If the slave turned the other cheek, the master would either be forced to hit him like an equal (open-handed) or back down.

pfw · 02-03-2007, 03:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prober

One story of the origin of this was...

A master would only hit his slave back-handed, usually with his right hand.
If the slave turned the other cheek, the master would either be forced to hit him like an equal (open-handed) or back down.

interesting-still not a passive interpritation though, it's quite a confrontational stance. (And risky for the slave).

wil · 02-03-2007, 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

... You seen them when trying to have a meal and there is a screaming whiny baby at the next table... or someone cuts them off in traffic.. or in drunken situations.. Meh I don't know where I'm going with this... Just you cannot love everyone.

It is true that these challenges...uh challenge us.

But if you perceive that everyone you encounter is here to assist you in learning unconditional love...the situation changes. When you I hear the whiny baby, I feel for both the child and the parents, as I was there, as a parent.

I've come to realize nobody cuts me off in traffic...some are racing down the road with abandon, some just realized they were in the wrong lane and needed to exit, some are just trying to get to the office or the hospital...either way it has nothing to with me...that was my old perception, but now I just let my foot off the gas, practice defensive driving, say a prayer that they get there...wherever there is safely. My grandfathers method as they flew by or 'cut him off' was simply to say outloud, "Tell'em were comin' when you get there!" Took me 30 years to figure out how valuable that attitude is.

and dealing with drunks...for years my friends and family dealt with me...I can surely deal with others for the rest of my lifetime...of course it is quite interesting...when you don't go where the drunks are...you don't encounter them so much...

Not being sanctimonious here at all. I just think turning the other cheek in the literal sense has value. Developing an awareness of our actions, reactions and perceptions and knowing there is another way is incredibly rewarding in life. I traveled these same roads as an angry, chip on my shoulder ass and constantly encountered those that proved my viewpoint and deserved my wrath. I now know I encounter the exact same folks in the exact same situations, and end up without anyone being injured, feelings hurt or blood pressure rising. oooh not always...but often...and when the issues now occur, I see them differently and as a tool to use to grow...always knowing it is my growth I need to concern myself with...not theirs.

path_of_one · 02-03-2007, 06:24 PM

I treat this literally, as do many of the "peace" churches in Christianity and the trends of conscientious objectors in some of the other churches.

I believe that Jesus was calling us to behave in a new way- to literally love our enemies, pray for them, to not repay violence with violence. I do not believe you can really love someone and be violent against them at the same time. It is fine and well to say that one loves the Iraqis and then bomb them, but it really makes no sense from my perspective. The more I recognize that all beings are priceless to God, and that they contain the light of God (even if they don't themselves recognize or honor it), the more I God corrects my tendencies to be self-centered- to anger, to be irritated, to be defensive. It's begging the whole "What Would Jesus Do?" argument. Would Jesus bomb Iraqis? Would He be OK with killing innocent civilians?

I just think the issue is pretty clear. Really difficult, yes. But clear. I suppose if God Himself ever comes to tell me otherwise, as He told people in the OT, I will change my mind. But in the meantime, I follow Christ's example, not my government's or culture's. Christ suffered unto death as an innocent, and in so doing, He changed for all eternity the relationship between God and humanity. And if I am called to take up my cross and follow Him, to love my enemies and pray for them, to turn the other cheek... how can I justify doing what is clearly oppositional behavior?

As for defense... in most cases, defending oneself does not have to mean violence, and it certainly (in my beliefs) does not extend to defending man-created institutions such as governments. I don't allow myself to be trod upon, but I avoid this by leaving the situation and relying on God, not by violence. Many social and personal injustices are healed through non-violent means- just look at Ghandi and Martin Luther King. And as I've said before, this is not idealism. I have been in a situation in which I was abused and faced the possibility of being killed, and I did not respond with violence, nor am I embittered against him. I don't take credit for that, but rather use it to encourage others- that Christ can work in our lives to peacably end injustice and suffering, and to propose that violence begets violence and does not ultimately give peace to anyone.

It may seem quite un-American, but on 9/11, I prayed just as much for the terrorists and felt just as badly for them as I did for the Americans who were killed. The terrorists, in some ways, were in an even worse position. They were so obviously lost and had so thoroughly forgotten the light of God within them... so out of touch with God to do such acts. It is so sad.

I suppose I am aligned with Quakers and Amish and such on these issues. As one Amish father said recently after the shooting of the girls at an Amish school (by a non-Amish man), he felt the most for the murderer (who had committed suicide after his crime). When asked why, he explained that the girls were cared for by God and were now in heaven, but the murderer was obviously so far from God's peace and love... and now he was lost forever. When this grieving man was asked what he would do/say if the murderer was still alive and in front of him, he said he would bring his Bible and pray with the man, encouraging him to give up his troubles and suffering and evil ways- to give it over to God and be renewed in Christ. And this, from a people who were relentlessly persecuted... originally killed for their beliefs, thrown in jail in America for following their beliefs and not going to war, and still get the misunderstanding and ridicule of so many.

Of course the peace churches aren't perfect- no one is. But on this issue, I think they show an inspiring example of embracing the literal words (and actions) of Christ.

Quahom1 · 02-03-2007, 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by path_of_one

I treat this literally, as do many of the "peace" churches in Christianity and the trends of conscientious objectors in some of the other churches.

I believe that Jesus was calling us to behave in a new way- to literally love our enemies, pray for them, to not repay violence with violence. I do not believe you can really love someone and be violent against them at the same time. It is fine and well to say that one loves the Iraqis and then bomb them, but it really makes no sense from my perspective. The more I recognize that all beings are priceless to God, and that they contain the light of God (even if they don't themselves recognize or honor it), the more I God corrects my tendencies to be self-centered- to anger, to be irritated, to be defensive. It's begging the whole "What Would Jesus Do?" argument. Would Jesus bomb Iraqis? Would He be OK with killing innocent civilians?

I just think the issue is pretty clear. Really difficult, yes. But clear. I suppose if God Himself ever comes to tell me otherwise, as He told people in the OT, I will change my mind. But in the meantime, I follow Christ's example, not my government's or culture's. Christ suffered unto death as an innocent, and in so doing, He changed for all eternity the relationship between God and humanity. And if I am called to take up my cross and follow Him, to love my enemies and pray for them, to turn the other cheek... how can I justify doing what is clearly oppositional behavior?

As for defense... in most cases, defending oneself does not have to mean violence, and it certainly (in my beliefs) does not extend to defending man-created institutions such as governments. I don't allow myself to be trod upon, but I avoid this by leaving the situation and relying on God, not by violence. Many social and personal injustices are healed through non-violent means- just look at Ghandi and Martin Luther King. And as I've said before, this is not idealism. I have been in a situation in which I was abused and faced the possibility of being killed, and I did not respond with violence, nor am I embittered against him. I don't take credit for that, but rather use it to encourage others- that Christ can work in our lives to peacably end injustice and suffering, and to propose that violence begets violence and does not ultimately give peace to anyone.

It may seem quite un-American, but on 9/11, I prayed just as much for the terrorists and felt just as badly for them as I did for the Americans who were killed. The terrorists, in some ways, were in an even worse position. They were so obviously lost and had so thoroughly forgotten the light of God within them... so out of touch with God to do such acts. It is so sad.

I suppose I am aligned with Quakers and Amish and such on these issues. As one Amish father said recently after the shooting of the girls at an Amish school (by a non-Amish man), he felt the most for the murderer (who had committed suicide after his crime). When asked why, he explained that the girls were cared for by God and were now in heaven, but the murderer was obviously so far from God's peace and love... and now he was lost forever. When this grieving man was asked what he would do/say if the murderer was still alive and in front of him, he said he would bring his Bible and pray with the man, encouraging him to give up his troubles and suffering and evil ways- to give it over to God and be renewed in Christ. And this, from a people who were relentlessly persecuted... originally killed for their beliefs, thrown in jail in America for following their beliefs and not going to war, and still get the misunderstanding and ridicule of so many.

Of course the peace churches aren't perfect- no one is. But on this issue, I think they show an inspiring example of embracing the literal words (and actions) of Christ.

The world needs the likes of you, as much as the likes of me right now...

Maybe one day, my kind won't be needed (then I can go back to my woods and contemplate the wonders of the universe), but not today.

v/r

Joshua

path_of_one · 02-03-2007, 08:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quahom1

The world needs the likes of you, as much as the likes of me right now...

Maybe one day, my kind won't be needed (then I can go back to my woods and contemplate the wonders of the universe), but not today.

v/r

Joshua

This is why, though I am a pacifist, I respect those who aren't. I can't answer for what they feel called by God to do, and I respect and am grateful for their following of their own path, even if it is not mine.

Recently I caught a PBS special in which WWII veterans from all countries got together to discuss. It was so touching to see Germans, Japanese, British, Americans... all together and shedding tears over the same memories of losing loved ones, fellow soldiers... After all these years, men on both sides shed tears over having to kill others, and explained they never could really get over it. It just makes no sense...

If people would simply focus on love and service to God and others, we wouldn't get into these situations. It seems so simple to me... I can't help but wonder at how hellish humanity chooses to make life when underneath it all is the Kingdom of God just waiting to be embraced...

I do pray, Q, for peace in every person's heart- peace with God, with themselves, with other humans, and with all beings. I do believe that one day, no one will feel called to fight... and I pray in the meantime that the wonders of the universe heal the often painful reality of what humans choose to make of it.

wil · 02-03-2007, 08:29 PM

Truly this is the gauntlet laid down.

Love your enemies.

Non-violence....tis the season right now as Path expressed we see very few publicly standing up and saying it from the mountain....but the most interesting thing is...we know their names!!...Jesus, Martin Luther King, Ghandhi.

I know there are more Mother Teresa, St Thomas Aquinas, folks who stood right in the middle of strife and made a difference without picking up a weapon.

Today is the day, should we choose it. It is always our choice.

Prober · 02-03-2007, 09:24 PM

Let there be peace on Earth
And let it begin with me!

Quahom1 · 02-03-2007, 09:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wil

Truly this is the gauntlet laid down.

Love your enemies.

Non-violence....tis the season right now as Path expressed we see very few publicly standing up and saying it from the mountain....but the most interesting thing is...we know their names!!...Jesus, Martin Luther King, Ghandhi.

I know there are more Mother Teresa, St Thomas Aquinas, folks who stood right in the middle of strife and made a difference without picking up a weapon.

Today is the day, should we choose it. It is always our choice.

Today, 150 Iraqis were killed, because there are those that do not care what the Iraqis want. Four US servicemen were killed trying to protect them...

you do the math.

I got two sons there. One a medic and one in special forces somewhere. They are all I've got (including the lineage I might be continued by). You know what the greatest BEEF the military over there has?

WHY ISN'T THE HOMELAND BACKING US UP? what the hell is up with congress? What a bunch of wishiwashies ass holes...

That is the ONLY question they have...and one you have to answer...not "when are we coming home..."

If ever a citizenry was ever out of sync with their military, the US is a perfect example...dumb, dumb, dumb, stupid, arrogant, idiots.

Joshua

Quahom1 · 02-03-2007, 09:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by path_of_one

This is why, though I am a pacifist, I respect those who aren't. I can't answer for what they feel called by God to do, and I respect and am grateful for their following of their own path, even if it is not mine.

Recently I caught a PBS special in which WWII veterans from all countries got together to discuss. It was so touching to see Germans, Japanese, British, Americans... all together and shedding tears over the same memories of losing loved ones, fellow soldiers... After all these years, men on both sides shed tears over having to kill others, and explained they never could really get over it. It just makes no sense...

If people would simply focus on love and service to God and others, we wouldn't get into these situations. It seems so simple to me... I can't help but wonder at how hellish humanity chooses to make life when underneath it all is the Kingdom of God just waiting to be embraced...

I do pray, Q, for peace in every person's heart- peace with God, with themselves, with other humans, and with all beings. I do believe that one day, no one will feel called to fight... and I pray in the meantime that the wonders of the universe heal the often painful reality of what humans choose to make of it.

There will come a day, when this country will either thank God for the soldiers and sailors and airmen they have, for beating back the enemy, or
will curse their stupidity for undermining the same...this is only the beginning Path.

v/r

Joshua

pfw · 02-03-2007, 10:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Today, 150 Iraqis were killed, because there are those that do not care what the Iraqis want. Four US servicemen were killed trying to protect them...

you do the math.

I got two sons there. One a medic and one in special forces somewhere. They are all I've got (including the lineage I might be continued by). You know what the greatest BEEF the military over there has?

WHY ISN'T THE HOMELAND BACKING US UP? what the hell is up with congress? What a bunch of wishiwashies ass holes...

That is the ONLY question they have...and one you have to answer...not "when are we coming home..."

If ever a citizenry was ever out of sync with their military, the US is a perfect example...dumb, dumb, dumb, stupid, arrogant, idiots.

Joshua

I feel for you and the sevice men and women in Iraq- talking as some one from England I disagree with the lies my Government told me to get this country involved but involved we are. (I realise this is going off track). I don't think the military should be blamed for what they are trying to do over there- they should be supported and given all the help they need. I can't help feeling that if America and the UK had done the job properly the first time 'round this war would have been unnecissary but... It's a painful truth that in this world sometime the only way to stop violence and injustice is with greater violence- until the word changes we are all going to need a millitary. I don't think Jesus was talking about countries or nations- he was speaking to individuals and millitary service didn't seem to be a reason for not helping someone. Did he not heal a Centurians servant because of that mans great faith? The individual was more important than anything else, yes he may have wanted to change the world but he did it one person at a time... That's my thoughts, sorry to have intruded.

Prober · 02-03-2007, 11:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pfw

It's a painful truth that in this world sometime the only way to stop violence and injustice is with greater violence- until the word changes we are all going to need a millitary.

I don't believe this (just my opinion). I believe in the power of the individual to change his world by standing up for what he believes in.

Having said that, I do not fault the honest intention of those who believe otherwise.

pfw · 02-03-2007, 11:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prober

I don't believe this (just my opinion). I believe in the power of the individual to change his world by standing up for what he believes in.

Having said that, I do not fault the honest intention of those who believe otherwise.

Hey, we both have differing opinions and I'm not going to take offense to that and you've expressed yourself with respect and consideration. I just hope I'm doing the same. I believe the world can, eventually, be changed and any suggestions on how to speed that up.... It is even possible for one man to stand against an army- Ghandi managed it (not alone, but you know what I mean). It worked against the British Empire-would it have worked against say the Roman Empire or Nazi Germany for example? The same tactik failed miserably against China not so long ago. The sad truth is against some people (individual) and some nations (global) they would see it as a weakness to either be exploited or crushed. Using the individual as an example- you can either allow them to walk all over you, let them put you in hospital or defend yourself- maybe that's the first lesson they need to see the error of their ways?(It worked on me).