Two mommies is 'too many,' Dobson writes in Time column

[pattimax]

Originally Posted by path_of_one

I don't think reason, science, and human fulfillment is antithetical to religion or God.

Science has only deepened my faith in God. Reason is a God-given trait to humans to help us come to Him. We can misuse it (just as we misuse other gifts from Him), but that is a problem with us, not reason itself.

As a Christian, I believe human fulfillment in the natural world is a result of our relationship with Christ. We become truly fulfilled here because we are truly fulfilled spiritually. The two go hand in hand; the one flows from the other.

I don't reject religious beliefs either. I don't agree with every religious belief (indeed, no one does), but I have plenty of religious beliefs.

I think religion is partly about humans and their values, capacities, and worth... and how that is related to God's values, capacities, and worth.

And I know I'm not alone on this one. Just this past week I had a long conversation with a department chair at a Baptist university (who is also a pastor) on this topic. There are more Christian scientists than a lot of people think.

What do you think being a Christian is about? There is a line drawn by spiritual formation that presents discipleship to Jesus Christ as the greatest opportunity that individual human beings have in life to to solve spiritual problems. Spitritual fulfillment is not the result, it is an on going process. True fulfillment will not occur until the Second Coming.

How much of it is related to God's values, capacities, and worth?The answer is all.

There are no TRUE Christian fence sitters. Sorry to say it that way. I was involved in an inter-faith ministry for quite a while. It wasn't until I was baptized into the family of God and I started faithfully studying God's Word that my heart really recieved the truth. I will never look back.
You are DEFINITELY not alone in your thinking, but that doesn't mean much...

Could you tell me more about this converation with a department chair at a Baptist university? What department?

You do NOT mean "Christian Science", right?

[pattimax]

"I don't think it has much to do with their understanding of God"

What is this opinion based on?

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by pattimax

What do you think being a Christian is about? There is a line drawn by spiritual formation that presents discipleship to Jesus Christ as the greatest opportunity that individual human beings have in life to to solve spiritual problems. Spitritual fulfillment is not the result, it is an on going process. True fulfillment will not occur until the Second Coming.

How much of it is related to God's values, capacities, and worth?The answer is all.

There are no TRUE Christian fence sitters. Sorry to say it that way. I was involved in an inter-faith ministry for quite a while. It wasn't until I was baptized into the family of God and I started faithfully studying God's Word that my heart really recieved the truth. I will never look back.
You are DEFINITELY not alone in your thinking, but that doesn't mean much...

Could you tell me more about this converation with a department chair at a Baptist university? What department?

You do NOT mean "Christian Science", right?

I think Path has a better handle on Christianity than given credit for. In a whirlwind world where everyone has some extreme version of how Christ should be, Path merely expresses how Christ affects Path. Can't attack one who expresses how they are affected.

And no, Path does not mean Christian Science.

[pattimax]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

I think Path has a better handle on Christianity than given credit for. In a whirlwind world where everyone has some extreme version of how Christ should be, Path merely expresses how Christ affects Path. Can't attack one who expresses how they are affected.

And no, Path does not mean Christian Science.

With all due respect, I was not attacking.

But in hindsight, while these views are popular with the culture, I am very grateful that my views changed...

path_of_one:
"I don't reject religious beliefs either. I don't agree with every religious belief (indeed, no one does), but I have plenty of religious beliefs.

I think religion is partly about humans and their values, capacities, and worth... and how that is related to God's values, capacities, and worth."

(Just making sure about the Christian Science thing.)

[Francis king]

what would jesus do? I saw this on a wrist band, a few years ago, everyone has seen it... so, what would jesus do? would jesus care if u were gay? would he condemn u and turn away from u becuase u was a homo?

as far as i can see, jesus wasn't a queer basher... so why are a lot of ppl who say they love christ appear unable to extend that love to gays? It's a shame that the message of liberation and brotherhood which jesus gave us all has become some peverse discriminatory institution, where jesus only loves the saved, and not the sinner, where so many types of love are unacceptable, where ppl focus on silly sins, homosexuality and masturbation, rather than the big ones, the starving children, the AIDs epidemic, the war on terror, where ppl who say they know jesus don't know him at all...

I was walking through town one day, and there was a street preacher, with a megaphone, and he was shouting- jesus loves u, and all u homosexuals will burn in hell, in the same breath, and I thought to myself....

what if I was a young lad, walking past now, who was struggling with his sexual orientation? what if he was already hating himself for fancying other boys, what if he was so confused and messed up and felt so bad that he was depressed and was thinking about suicide? what if he heard that man, with his megaphone and went and threw himself off a multistorey carpark? what if? would the man with the megaphone be doing the work of god?

jesus loves u (except if ur gay)

doesn't work for me

[kiwimac]

This Christian focus on homosexuality is ludicrous. Homosexuality occurs throughout the animal kingdom, of which humanity is a part. There are far more important focuses than a person's sexual orientation. Indeed the person Christians say they follow, Jesus of Nazareth said as much when he declared what would be the operative standard of Judgement for Christians in Matthew 25.

kiwimac

[Saltmeister]

Originally Posted by pattimax

There are no TRUE Christian fence sitters. Sorry to say it that way. I was involved in an inter-faith ministry for quite a while. It wasn't until I was baptized into the family of God and I started faithfully studying God's Word that my heart really recieved the truth. I will never look back.
You are DEFINITELY not alone in your thinking, but that doesn't mean much...

But not all issues are "essential" in the sense that they have the same answers every time. It often depends on the person and the situation at hand. It also has to do with the dynamics of personality, feelings, emotions and people involved, what one values and what one sees as important. Sometimes there's no single or best answer, but it's good to know what's important, what one values, the dynamics of the situation, the consequences, the implications, etc.

Is it wrong to drink alcohol? No. But if you drink too much, it will affect your behaviour.

Is it wrong to lie? As long as it doesn't hurt anyone. Some lies don't do any damage. It is only important to tell the truth when it's necessary and beneficial. One should avoid telling lies when they do damage in the long-term to relationships.

When does pride become arrogance? That one is a bit tricky. See if you can answer that one.

When is the desire to help others or change the world to make it a better place self-serving, self-indulgent or an ego trip? When is it truly selfless and altruistic? Another tough question.

Is it a sin to play violent or addictive computer games? But what if I can justify that by saying that I'm a grown man, a mature man who knows how playing computer games can become a bad habit and play responsibly? Isn't it common knowledge that addictive computer games is ok for responsible people, that it's only bad for people who aren't responsible gamers? Where do you draw the line? Who's mentally/emotionally qualified for the job? Same with exceeding the speed limit. The law is only for bad people, not for responsible people. Responsible people are allowed to exceed the speed limit. Reckless people are not. Plus there's nothing wrong with breaking the law as long as you don't get caught.

More tough questions. What's the meaning of life? What's the purpose of life? To discover oneself? To be successful? To be devoted to God? If one is to be devoted to God, does one follow rules or follow a more down-to-earth, absorb-the-meaning-of-everything attitude?

Who is more sincere, the rule-follower or the free-thinker with the down-to-earth, absorb-the-meaning-of-everything attitude?

There's a saying: one man's poison is another man's medicine. I think it applies here too. One kind of behaviour may be ok for some, but unhealthy for others. It's different for different people. Are fence-sitters really wrong and spiritually blind? Didn't God give us a mind to think and reason and not just follow rules? Are we not here to explore, contemplate, speculate, observe, examine and discover? Is there a model that fits all sizes? Are we just supposed to shoehorn that model into ours lives, even if we don't understand what it means?

Ok, I would agree that with parenting, you don't want your kids eloping and running away with some guy or girl if it will ruin their future. You would want them to trust you even if they didn't know any better.

But suppose several years down the track, you're a grown-up person, spear-heading your own career, taking risks, trying things out to see what's good and bad, and someone is "nice enough" to lecture you and give you advice on how to run your life. You have no idea what they mean. You have no experience of what's ahead. What do you do? Too much to take in all at once?

It's like in university, they teach you a lot of theory, but you have no practical experience of the field in which you will work when you graduate. How are you supposed to know any better? Not all of the advice you receive will make sense. There are a lot of protocols and procedures you have to follow, but you don't even know where it will all lead. Do you just follow it blindly? Make one false move and boom!!! There goes your career. So you have to think, take things one step at a time, observe what happens, get feedback, get experience and learn -- and then do things your way. Welcome to the real world . . .

We're not fence-sitters everywhere and all the time. Decisions have to be made. Sometimes we're on one side of the fence or the other. But not always on the same side. But sometimes you can't really be on either side, especially when it comes to life's big questions. Sometimes there is no straight answer. You just have to appreciate the possibilities but not get polarised either way. We are also evolving emotionally. We are changing emotionally. That's why making rules doesn't always make sense. The rules don't always benefit us emotionally. It might even do some emotional damage because we're forcing ourselves to follow the rules. This is one place where fence-sitting is the best thing to do. It's a way of avoiding emotional damage.

[BuzzLY]

Originally Posted by Francis king

really, there is not much difference between men and women

I hate to burst your bubble Francis but there are some very significant differences innate between men and women. True there is a fair amount of overlap between some members of the opposite sex but by and large there are well pronounced physical, mental and behavioral differences that have a genetic basis.

For example females are generally much better at multi-tasking while males have better target directed motor skills.

As for the notion that two mommies are too many I have to disagree. If women are more nurturing (which may very well be the case in aggregate) there really is no such thing as being nutured too much. On the other hand two daddies might actually be a problem.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by BuzzLY

I hate to burst your bubble Francis but there are some very significant differences innate between men and women. True there is a fair amount of overlap between some members of the opposite sex but by and large there are well pronounced physical, mental and behavioral differences that have a genetic basis.

For example females are generally much better at multi-tasking while males have better target directed motor skills.

As for the notion that two mommies are too many I have to disagree. If women are more nurturing (which may very well be the case in aggregate) there really is no such thing as being nutured too much. On the other hand two daddies might actually be a problem.

Anything out of balance is out of balance. That is apparent in not only the emotional/psychological/spiritual world, but the physical world as well.

[InLove]

Regarding fence-sitting: As a Christian, it has been my experience that climbing up on the fence every now and then helps me to see both sides of an issue. And not just this one. My fence is supported by a foundation called Love. And in that Spirit I listen and watch. I like my fence sometimes.

InPeace,
InLove

[BlaznFattyz]

Originally Posted by kiwimac

This Christian focus on homosexuality is ludicrous. Homosexuality occurs throughout the animal kingdom, of which humanity is a part. There are far more important focuses than a person's sexual orientation. Indeed the person Christians say they follow, Jesus of Nazareth said as much when he declared what would be the operative standard of Judgement for Christians in Matthew 25.

kiwimac

god never came to save animals, he came to save man. to be born again, one must let god in, not just into the rooms you want, but all of them, even the dark closets that you locked. although we always fall short, christ says sin no more.. that is strive to be holy like the father is holy, and let the spirit guide you to what is right.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by InLove

Regarding fence-sitting: As a Christian, it has been my experience that climbing up on the fence every now and then helps me to see both sides of an issue. And not just this one. My fence is supported by a foundation called Love. And in that Spirit I listen and watch. I like my fence sometimes.

InPeace,
InLove

Funny how one word can change the entire concept of an idea.
The term is "fence walking". It implies a precarious balance which if interrupted could result in one falling on one side or the other, or worse, slipping and landing on the fence pole "between the legs".

In any event the one now sitting on the fence most likely will fall one way or the other (in pain).

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by kiwimac

This Christian focus on homosexuality is ludicrous. Homosexuality occurs throughout the animal kingdom, of which humanity is a part. There are far more important focuses than a person's sexual orientation. Indeed the person Christians say they follow, Jesus of Nazareth said as much when he declared what would be the operative standard of Judgement for Christians in Matthew 25.

kiwimac

Humanity is not part of the animal kingdom (not once God has touched the soul and spirit of man). Some really do focus on Homosexuality as a bad thing (in the laws of nature it is a dead end for the continuation of a species).

Indeed the Leaders of Sparta declared under law that each man HAD to lay with a woman in order to bear children to continue the existence of Sparta. They knew their existence depended upon the continuation of their people (they became desperate because Homosexuality was dominant), and more people were dying than being born.

On the otherhand, your declaration that Christian focus on homosexuality being ludicrous...is not your call. Your demanding that Christians ignore a "natural" occurance in this world is equally ludicrous Kiwi. Christians are in this world but not of it. You demand that they accept that they are of this world, the "natural world". That goes against all that is Christian, so you are mistaken to think that they should be, and not too enlightened to assume they would be.

And it is never wise to take Matthew 25 out of context, especially when those reading it have studied that for a long time.

v/r
Joshua

[InLove]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

In any event the one now sitting on the fence most likely will fall one way or the other (in pain).

Yes, the fence is not usually cozy, and it can appear treacherous at times. One must be sure of one's footing. Thus, the support mechanism I mentioned.

InPeace,
InLove

[pattimax]

Originally Posted by Saltmeister

When does pride become arrogance? That one is a bit tricky. See if you can answer that one.


Who is more sincere, the rule-follower or the free-thinker with the down-to-earth, absorb-the-meaning-of-everything attitude?

Are fence-sitters really wrong and spiritually blind? Didn't God give us a mind to think and reason and not just follow rules? Are we not here to explore, contemplate, speculate, observe, examine and discover? Is there a model that fits all sizes? Are we just supposed to shoehorn that model into ours lives, even if we don't understand what it means?
Welcome to the real world . . .

It's a way of avoiding emotional damage.

The difference between pride and arrogance are degrees. Pride is confident. Arrogance is usually clueless.

The truly sincere one is the free-thinker that has figured out why the rules are there and follows them with all of their heart, soul, and mind, while absorbing the meaning of everything.

Fence-sitters are NOT wrong for a while. God gave you a mind to reason and trust.We should have good reason for thinking Christianity is true before we dedicate our lives to it. If you are truly seeking, he trusts you will climb down from the fence and actually take a stand. There comes a time when asking questions will be tedious. While all of your questions may be valid, faith is your trust in what solid reasoning presents.

As for the REAL world and avoiding emotional damage, try praying to our Lord Jesus Christ. He has had quite a bit of real world experience.