Unclean?

[Prober]

Peter wanted to present the appearance of propriety when with the Jewish brethren and had this vision...(Acts 11)

1 And the apostles and brethren that were in Judaea heard that the Gentiles had also received the word of God.

2 And when Peter was come up to Jerusalem, they that were of the circumcision contended with him,

3 Saying, Thou wentest in to men uncircumcised, and didst eat with them.

4 But Peter rehearsed the matter from the beginning, and expounded it by order unto them, saying,

5 I was in the city of Joppa praying: and in a trance I saw a vision, A certain vessel descend, as it had been a great sheet, let down from heaven by four corners; and it came even to me:

6 Upon the which when I had fastened mine eyes, I considered, and saw fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.

7 And I heard a voice saying unto me, Arise, Peter; slay and eat.

8 But I said, Not so, Lord: for nothing common or unclean hath at any time entered into my mouth.

9 But the voice answered me again from heaven, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.

10 And this was done three times: and all were drawn up again into heaven.

What do we understand from this?

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Prober

Peter wanted to present the appearance of propriety when with the Jewish brethren and had this vision...(Acts 11)

1 And the apostles and brethren that were in Judaea heard that the Gentiles had also received the word of God.

2 And when Peter was come up to Jerusalem, they that were of the circumcision contended with him,

3 Saying, Thou wentest in to men uncircumcised, and didst eat with them.

4 But Peter rehearsed the matter from the beginning, and expounded it by order unto them, saying,

5 I was in the city of Joppa praying: and in a trance I saw a vision, A certain vessel descend, as it had been a great sheet, let down from heaven by four corners; and it came even to me:

6 Upon the which when I had fastened mine eyes, I considered, and saw fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.

7 And I heard a voice saying unto me, Arise, Peter; slay and eat.

8 But I said, Not so, Lord: for nothing common or unclean hath at any time entered into my mouth.

9 But the voice answered me again from heaven, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.

10 And this was done three times: and all were drawn up again into heaven.

What do we understand from this?

It is not what goes into the mouth and out the body that is unclean, but what can come from man's heart, that is where treachery lay...

Peter's attitude was "unclean", and God was pointing that out. What would be the next step? People...

Who are unclean and unworthy of the holiness of God? All. But what was God telling Peter? Bring them all into me. Let your heart be open and not condenscending, for none are forbidden to come to me (the Lord God).

In otherwords Peter, don't pick and choose who comes to me and who does not. It isn't your place since all are given opportunity to know me, despite your personal predjudice/discrimination...and I would rather you lead them to me, than have you expell/rebuff them.

God was telling Peter to accept all men who sought God, not just the chosen few. Only difference is that Peter had a dream, and Paul had to be blinded in order to see the truth...

How amazing our Lord and His ways.

v/r

Joshua

[Thomas]

Also ...

Here we can see that the Jerusalem Christians converted from Judaism, contested with Peter that the Gospel was for the Jews alone, not for the Gentile.

The tension between the Jews and Gentiles was immediate and sometimes violent. There were running street fights recorded in Rome, for example.

This tension is visible here, and later in Acts when Paul berrates Peter for siding with the Jerusalem contingent who refused to eat with the Gentile converts. And of course, Paul had to plead his case before the Apostles that the Christian was not obliged to accept all the Jewish prescriptions.

+++

These tensions remained, some Judaic-Christian sects such as the Ebionites and the Nazarenes for example, observed strict Jewish Tradition; only accepted Matthew as authoratitive, Paul was declared apostate; the Virgin Birth and the Divinity of Christ were denied. They might well have been followers of John the Baptist who did not accept Jesus as the Messiah but rather as a herald of the Messianic Age, and therefore life to be lived according to the social ethic and the Law, as taught on the Sermon on the Mount, which would be the way of life.

Later such sects were lumped in with the gnostics, which in common currency gives them a glamour they do not reightly deserve. The later Ebionites were pseudognostic in the sense that they denied the gnostic teaching of the demiurge – ie there is one God and He is the God of Scripture - and although adopted many of the dualistic ideas common among the various gnostic sects, some pro-gnostic sources have argued otherwise.

Thomas

[bananabrain]

the idea is not that non-jews themselves are "unclean" (although they would be in a state of *cultic* uncleanliness, which is not the same thing, although the translation would fail to note the distinction) but that their food and utensils would be thereby impermissible for jews to eat of and from. hence, jews would not be able to eat with non-jews, particularly in the contemporary environment, in which people ate with their hands from a shared dish. you can see how some people (particularly the ignorant or uneducated) would understand that as "urgh, can't eat with those non-jews, they're unclean" - whereas it's actually a question of kashrut, in that it would be unreasonable (and still is) to expect non-jews to provide kosher dining facilities. it is abundantly clear how this argument would play out in the environment of the early "jews for jesus".

b'shalom

bananabrain

[Prober]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Peter's attitude was "unclean", and God was pointing that out. What would be the next step? People...

Who are unclean and unworthy of the holiness of God? All. But what was God telling Peter? Bring them all into me. Let your heart be open and not condenscending, for none are forbidden to come to me (the Lord God).

In otherwords Peter, don't pick and choose who comes to me and who does not. It isn't your place since all are given opportunity to know me, despite your personal predjudice/discrimination...and I would rather you lead them to me, than have you expell/rebuff them.

God was telling Peter to accept all men who sought God, not just the chosen few. Only difference is that Peter had a dream, and Paul had to be blinded in order to see the truth...

How amazing our Lord and His ways.

v/r

Joshua

Amen! Amazing indeed.

How can we, therefore, choose whom we will accept? Adulterers, homosexuals, prostitutes, drug users, etc?

I say we can't.

[Prober]

Originally Posted by bananabrain

but that their food and utensils would be thereby impermissible for jews to eat of and from. hence, jews would not be able to eat with non-jews, particularly in the contemporary environment, in which people ate with their hands from a shared dish. you can see how some people (particularly the ignorant or uneducated) would understand that as "urgh, can't eat with those non-jews, they're unclean"

bananabrain

Indeed! There are comments in the NT re Jesus and his disciples not washing thier hands.

[InLove]

Originally Posted by Prober

Amen! Amazing indeed.

How can we, therefore, choose whom we will accept? Adulterers, homosexuals, prostitutes, drug users, etc?

I say we can't.

Not unless we want the same standard applied to ourselves.

Maybe "accept" is a term that falls short of the goal. Maybe it is not necessarily always our job to accept, but more often simply to love?

InPeace,
InLove

[Prober]

Originally Posted by Thomas

This tension is visible here, and later in Acts when Paul berrates Peter for siding with the Jerusalem contingent who refused to eat with the Gentile converts. And of course, Paul had to plead his case before the Apostles that the Christian was not obliged to accept all the Jewish prescriptions.

Thomas

I really would like to have been there to see this. For me, it's fascinating to think of how much of a struggle that must have been to be torn between giving up your traditions and reaching out to the world and their different ideas.

Perhaps it was similar to the struggles we have between "liberal" and "conservative" viewpoints (although I'm sure it was much more intense).

Spying on each other to see who's circumcised, etc.

[Prober]

Originally Posted by InLove

Not unless we want the same standard applied to ourselves.

Maybe "accept" is a term that falls short of the goal. Maybe it is not necessarily always our job to accept, but more often simply to love?

InPeace,
InLove

Very true...

I don't mean to suggest that we have to condone any specific behavior, but everyone can be welcomed and brought to G-d.

[InLove]

yeah--I like that word "welcome". Jesus welcomed me....

InPeace,
InLove

[Prober]

Originally Posted by InLove

yeah--I like that word "welcome". Jesus welcomed me....

InPeace,
InLove

I'm glad He waited for me.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Prober

Amen! Amazing indeed.

How can we, therefore, choose whom we will accept? Adulterers, homosexuals, prostitutes, drug users, etc?

I say we can't.

But Jesus states that is precisely what we are to do, Prober. According to Christian tradition, Jesus did not come for the healthy, but for the wretched, the sick, the anxious, the down in heart...

He did not share the majority of His meals and His time with kings and princes, but rather with paupers, prostitutes, tax collectors, carpenters, children and fishermen (common folk, salt of the earth).

He never however, said to accept their ways. He simply said accept them, for they are His.

Did you ever drive past a man or woman standing in the median by a stop light, holding a sign that said, "hungry and broke, please help"? Of course you have. I think we all have. What was your first reaction? Look anywhere but at the person in dire straits? Roll up your car window? Turn up your radio to drown out your conflicting thoughts? Drive past as quick as possible? Maybe get angry at them for being in the position they are in, thus making you feel the way you feel?

Or maybe you gave the down in luck, a 20 spot, then drove away thinking you helped...for about 60 seconds, until reality comes knocking and tells you that chump change will be good for a meal or two (or a bottle of booze), but not much else...

Everything leads up to one thing, denial. We don't want to deal with the imperfect in life. It bothers us or enrages us. Truth is Jesus was pointing out quite clearly that people are exactly what we should be interested in. Our fellow man IS our business. We as Christ's representitives/followers should be shining examples of leadership in aggressively pursuing the rectification of the hardships of others.

He never said it would be easy or pleasant. He simply said "do it for my sake"...

v/r

Joshua

[InLove]

Thanks, Q. I would venture to say that when we choose Love, the acceptance factor naturally would follow. After all, we love Him because He first loves us. He loves us, welcomes us, accepts us...we follow Him and do the same for others....

InPeace,
InLove

[Dondi]

Originally Posted by InLove

Thanks, Q. I would venture to say that when we choose Love, the acceptance factor naturally would follow. After all, we love Him because He first loves us. He loves us, welcomes us, accepts us...we follow Him and do the same for others....

InPeace,
InLove

He accepts us, but check you sin at the door.

[Prober]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

But Jesus states that is precisely what we are to do, Prober. According to Christian tradition, Jesus did not come for the healthy, but for the wretched, the sick, the anxious, the down in heart...

Well, you got me on that one.

He never however, said to accept their ways. He simply said accept them, for they are His.

Yes, absolutely.

Did you ever drive past a man or woman standing in the median by a stop light, holding a sign that said, "hungry and broke, please help"? Of course you have. I think we all have. What was your first reaction? Look anywhere but at the person in dire straits? Roll up your car window? Turn up your radio to drown out your conflicting thoughts? Drive past as quick as possible? Maybe get angry at them for being in the position they are in, thus making you feel the way you feel?

Or maybe you gave the down in luck, a 20 spot, then drove away thinking you helped...for about 60 seconds, until reality comes knocking and tells you that chump change will be good for a meal or two (or a bottle of booze), but not much else...

Every morning, I ask G-d to help me find someone to help in some way. It's not as much for them as it is for me - because I recognize in myself that "rolling up the window" thing you mentioned.

I don't help everyone. I wait (and listen) for G-d to impress me to help (and He does).

Everything leads up to one thing, denial. We don't want to deal with the imperfect in life. It bothers us or enrages us. Truth is Jesus was pointing out quite clearly that people are exactly what we should be interested in. Our fellow man IS our business. We as Christ's representitives/followers should be shining examples of leadership in aggressively pursuing the rectification of the hardships of others.

He never said it would be easy or pleasant. He simply said "do it for my sake"...

v/r

Joshua

Amen.