Understanding Spiritual Warfare - Page 3

Conscience · 04-20-2005, 04:32 AM

From the NASV:
Mt 4:8-10 "Again, the devil took Him to a very high moutain and showed Him all the kigndoms of the world and their glory; and he said to Him, "All these things I will give You, if You fall down and worship me." Then Jesus said to him, "Go, Satan! For it is written, 'You shall worship the Lord your God, and serve Him only.'"

This does not state that Satan is a god over the world. It is the temptation of Jesus by Satan, which, by the way, does not undermine the original Judaic understanding of Satan that is put forth in the OT.

For it to be a temptation it would have to be true. Jesus was "tempted" to worship Satan, but he didnt! The reason Satan could offer the world, was because he runs it. Again, what I and the Bible is talking about is the "unsaved world." Ephs. 6:12 says that we dont fight against people, but evil spirts, e.g., "powers," and "Principlities." These powers and principlities (Evil spirits) work through personalities (unsaved people). About Satan's character changing though. Are you aware that the OT is the NT consealed, and the NT is the OT revealed? Its not strange when you think about it, like most books, the Bible has all the answers to the back.

2 Corinthians 4:4 talks of the "god of this world" but not Satan by name.

LOL. Did it really have to name him? Isnt it obvious?

I will say that for varied reasons I do not hold Paul's letters as sacred, but obviously you do. There is an excellent article on this website that illuminates why I do not consider Paul's text as sacred, and it has a lot to do with contradicting the words of Jesus in the gospels. I do read Paul's letters and extract what is in line with the teachings of Jesus, as guided by the Spirit, but I do not put the letters on the same level as Jesus' teachings in the gospels.

"ALL scripture is given by inspiration of God. 2Tim. 3:16" The 66 books of the bible prove that it was engineered by God. The mere fact that it proves to be written from outside of our time domine gives credit to its supernatual nature. But, I understand if you dont believe what I beleive.

That said, even accepting Paul's letters as sacred text does not mean that the "god of this world" is Satan, especially if you study the meaning of Satan (and the term Satan) in the original Hebrew scriptures (the Jewish Torah, our OT).

Again, satan hasnt changed. The NT just reveals what the OT consealed.

path_of_one · 04-20-2005, 03:36 PM

You can make those leaps of faith if you like, but I prefer to study history and the cultural context in which concepts such as Satan came about. If the OT version of Satan is very different from the current Christian theological one, I'm going to go with the original Jewish concept because it would be more authentic. I highly recommend "A History of Hell." Concepts like heaven and hell, Satan, etc. have changed much in the last two thousand years, and this is documented.

Secondly, I highly recommend the article on Paul's documents hosted on this website. The Christian church was never unified even in its beginnings, and Pauline Christianity (with some ideas that are in direct contradiction to Jesus' own words in the gospels) dominated over the church that was formed by the disciples themselves. Sorry, but I'm more inclined to think that the original disciples had the right ideas about what Jesus was there for and trying to convey than some guy that came along after the fact. And, no, I won't waste my time debating this. You can read the articles for yourself and post a debate after you've read them if you'd like to take them on.

The Bible says it was "inspired" by God, not channeled through humans as a complete text. I fully believe the Bible was inspired by God. I have also been "inspired" to write by God, as well as by the beauty of nature, by other people, etc. That does not mean that God took my hand and physically wrote down what to say. It means that God was my muse. So, the Bible is a result of people having God as their muse, their inspiration. The Christian Bible was not canonized until several hundred years after Christ's death, at which time they chose Pauline Christianity over many other varieties and barred the other gospels, acts, revelations, etc. from the Bible. Furthermore, the history of the Bible is such that it is highly likely that some books were altered or parts were copied from other books, that people were discussing things before writing them all down, etc. It is not as if Jesus himself wrote any of it. People were writing about Jesus and interpreting what his actions and words were from memory, and Paul had never even been with Jesus while he was alive!

That said, I feel that the Bible is full of truth if one reads it with the Holy Spirit in one's heart and with an open mind, paying attention to what we can know through history, linguistic, and cultural study. I myself have seen certain passages misinterpreted simply because people reading the Bible in English did not realize that the phrase was an Aramaic idiomatic expression. Like a Chinese person reading the direct translation of English expressions like "time flies when you're having fun" or "he kicked the bucket," we don't get very far when we think Jesus was literally saying "if your eye offends thee, cut it out."

Now, it's up to you if you wish to acknowledge the need for historical, cultural, and linguistic context for yourself. I have no doubts that these are unnecessary for some people to feel that they are getting the right message from scripture. That is what works for you. What works for me is scholarship and careful study, along with prayer for insight. I would rather know the history of my religion and be sure that I am not practicing something that Jesus did not intend. Ultimately, I'm very liberal and think that everyone who truly seeks God will find the Kingdom of Heaven, so in my belief system accuracy really doesn't matter, it is faith and action and God's infinite grace that do, but my personality is such that I still demand accuracy for myself.

Conscience · 04-20-2005, 03:47 PM

"You can make those leaps of faith if you like."

Yeah, I want!

Bandit · 04-20-2005, 04:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by path_of_one

Secondly, I highly recommend the article on Paul's documents hosted on this website. The Christian church was never unified even in its beginnings, and Pauline Christianity (with some ideas that are in direct contradiction to Jesus' own words in the gospels) dominated over the church that was formed by the disciples themselves. Sorry, but I'm more inclined to think that the original disciples had the right ideas about what Jesus was there for and trying to convey than some guy that came along after the fact. And, no, I won't waste my time debating this. You can read the articles for yourself and post a debate after you've read them if you'd like to take them on.

I feel it is important also to study the history & culture of the times & other writings. At the same time I don't see contradictions in the 66 books, rather the way people interpret it that brings contradiction. I dont see any differences, rather an expounding on what Satan & temptation with spiritual warfare is about in the New Testament. From what I can see, Paul & Luke support what Jesus taught about Satan & what the rest of the bible teaches.

I cant change the way it happened after the Apostles, but I am pretty sure that what happened through Rome is the way God intended it.
There has always been efforts to destroy & stamp out the bible & some will use any angle they can think of. I would not say that the early church was not unified, because according to the bible & the Apostles, it was unified with one mind & one accord.
I believe all 66 books are the Word of the Lord.

Acts 2
44 And all that believed were together, and had all things common;
45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.
46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,

1 Corinthians 1:10 )
(10) Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and {that} there be no divisions among you; but {that} ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

(1 John 1:3,7)
(3) That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship {is} with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ. (7) But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

path_of_one · 04-20-2005, 06:06 PM

I do believe we are all unified in our love of Jesus and our commitment to our faith. But it is clear that throughout history, even in the earliest days, there were doctrinal differences, which have only become more prevalent as time goes on. Personally, I don't think the doctrinal differences matter much as long as we are all respectful of the differences and love one another and God. But as a scholar I simply can't ignore the history. I do not seek to disprove the Bible. I do not think it can be disproven, as it is a sacred text and its acceptance in any form (as inerrant or not, as literal or metaphoric) must be taken on the faith that it contains wisdom. For me it is not damaging to carefully study the history of the religion, when doctrine changed or was developed, how this is different or similar to traditional Jewish doctrine, etc. It has only deepened my understanding of my own faith and sacred text. I recognize that for some it has the opposite effect, and I would urge them to avoid practices that they worry would undermine their faith in God.

truthseeker · 04-20-2005, 06:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by path_of_one

I do believe we are all unified in our love of Jesus and our commitment to our faith. But it is clear that throughout history, even in the earliest days, there were doctrinal differences, which have only become more prevalent as time goes on. Personally, I don't think the doctrinal differences matter much as long as we are all respectful of the differences and love one another and God. But as a scholar I simply can't ignore the history. I do not seek to disprove the Bible. I do not think it can be disproven, as it is a sacred text and its acceptance in any form (as inerrant or not, as literal or metaphoric) must be taken on the faith that it contains wisdom. For me it is not damaging to carefully study the history of the religion, when doctrine changed or was developed, how this is different or similar to traditional Jewish doctrine, etc. It has only deepened my understanding of my own faith and sacred text. I recognize that for some it has the opposite effect, and I would urge them to avoid practices that they worry would undermine their faith in God.

A true bible study can not ignore the history and the history serves to strengthen the truth that lies in the wisdom of the words.

Argueing about whether Jesus was God or man is like argueing over whether Jesus was black or white - you stand to lose or never really grasp the meaning of his message. It is one that incorporates all people through reverence of all mankind. Jesus didn't say 'Join my army: Everlasting life in Heaven is the fringe benefit'. It is difficult to really understand Jesus if you can't open your mind to understanding the whole of mankind.

Faithfulservant · 04-21-2005, 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by truthseeker

Argueing about whether Jesus was God or man is like argueing over whether Jesus was black or white - you stand to lose or never really grasp the meaning of his message. It is one that incorporates all people through reverence of all mankind. Jesus didn't say 'Join my army: Everlasting life in Heaven is the fringe benefit'. It is difficult to really understand Jesus if you can't open your mind to understanding the whole of mankind.

Hmm.. Jesus is God and He is man.. you either believe Him or you dont. Simple as that. No point in arguing it if your not convicted of it by The Spirit.. you arent ready or you'll never be ready..

From a bible believer.

truthseeker · 04-22-2005, 11:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by path_of_one

...The Christian church was never unified even in its beginnings, and Pauline Christianity (with some ideas that are in direct contradiction to Jesus' own words in the gospels) dominated over the church that was formed by the disciples themselves. Sorry, but I'm more inclined to think that the original disciples had the right ideas about what Jesus was there for and trying to convey than some guy that came along after the fact...

The Bible says it was "inspired" by God, not channeled through humans as a complete text.
... Furthermore, the history of the Bible is such that it is highly likely that some books were altered or parts were copied from other books, that people were discussing things before writing them all down, etc. It is not as if Jesus himself wrote any of it. People were writing about Jesus and interpreting what his actions and words were from memory, and Paul had never even been with Jesus while he was alive!

...I would rather know the history of my religion and be sure that I am not practicing something that Jesus did not intend. Ultimately, I'm very liberal and think that everyone who truly seeks God will find the Kingdom of Heaven, so in my belief system accuracy really doesn't matter, it is faith and action and God's infinite grace that do, but my personality is such that I still demand accuracy for myself.

That is an incredible mouthful. I agree.

Quahom1 · 04-22-2005, 11:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by truthseeker

That is an incredible mouthful. I agree.

Then we are back to square one. The faith? or the law?

hard to choose...

v/r

Q

truthseeker · 04-26-2005, 01:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Then we are back to square one. The faith? or the law?

hard to choose...

Why is it so hard to choose? The Law becomes you when you locked into the faith. We are saved by faith because we can not have any true regard for the Law with out first tuning into God. Without that connection, the need to deed becomes elusive. By faith, God is on your mind and as you see the things that God is doing in your life on a regular basis and give him glory, then you reciprocate that by obeying the Law because you see the true effect that it has in your life. Not only to serve God, but God gives man the Law so that we have life more abundantly!

Faithfulservant · 04-26-2005, 05:57 AM

We are saved by Grace.. Jesus freed us from the law because He came to fulfill it.. so we are not bound by the laws of the OT.. which we could never follow because it is impossible. The OT was preparing the way for The Lamb.. there is no way the blood of an animal could ever cover sin.. It took the blood Christ shed for us on the cross where our sins were nailed to cover every sin forevermore.. In the OT they sacrificed the blood of animals in acknowledgment for their every sin.. They HAD to acknowledge and repent of them to God. Just like when we ask for forgiveness.. Jesus already shed the blood but we HAVE to acknowledge and repent.

Bandit · 04-26-2005, 07:27 AM

Eph2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: i think the works, love & commandments will come naturally, written on the heart when someone turns there heart & life over to Jesus

.

truthseeker · 04-26-2005, 04:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Faithfulservant

We are saved by Grace.. Jesus freed us from the law because He came to fulfill it.. so we are not bound by the laws of the OT.. which we could never follow because it is impossible. The OT was preparing the way for The Lamb.. there is no way the blood of an animal could ever cover sin.. It took the blood Christ shed for us on the cross where our sins were nailed to cover every sin forevermore.. In the OT they sacrificed the blood of animals in acknowledgment for their every sin.. They HAD to acknowledge and repent of them to God. Just like when we ask for forgiveness.. Jesus already shed the blood but we HAVE to acknowledge and repent.

Gentiles were never bound by the Laws of the OT anyway. Jews were. Nonetheless, obeying the Laws does give man life more abundantly. God didn't supply rules just so he could see if man would obey or not. God supplied rules to show man how to live. Although Jesus was sacrificed, the wages of sin, still, is death. I'm not talking about connections with God and going to heaven and all that. I'm talking about the rules on how to live following the ten commandments. You can throw them out the window if you want, but those are specific instructions on how to live a healthy lifestyle; that we may live longer and have more time to strengthen our relationship before leaving this earth.

lunamoth · 04-26-2005, 06:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by truthseeker

Gentiles were never bound by the Laws of the OT anyway. Jews were. Nonetheless, obeying the Laws does give man life more abundantly. God didn't supply rules just so he could see if man would obey or not. God supplied rules to show man how to live. Although Jesus was sacrificed, the wages of sin, still, is death. I'm not talking about connections with God and going to heaven and all that. I'm talking about the rules on how to live following the ten commandments. You can throw them out the window if you want, but those are specific instructions on how to live a healthy lifestyle; that we may live longer and have more time to strengthen our relationship before leaving this earth.

Well, this makes quite good sense!

peace,
lunamoth

Quahom1 · 04-26-2005, 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by truthseeker

Gentiles were never bound by the Laws of the OT anyway. Jews were. Nonetheless, obeying the Laws does give man life more abundantly. God didn't supply rules just so he could see if man would obey or not. God supplied rules to show man how to live. Although Jesus was sacrificed, the wages of sin, still, is death. I'm not talking about connections with God and going to heaven and all that. I'm talking about the rules on how to live following the ten commandments. You can throw them out the window if you want, but those are specific instructions on how to live a healthy lifestyle; that we may live longer and have more time to strengthen our relationship before leaving this earth.

Ah, Truth. We are bound...by the seven Noaidic Laws/commandments. We all are. There it is, the number 7 again...

Of course it is irrelevent, since we "Christians" can't seem to keep even two that Jesus gave us.

my two cents

v/r

Q