Understanding the Trinity - Page 2

robocombot · 03-18-2005, 12:40 PM

one aspect of the trinity ive been thinking about, but it may well be stating the obvious:

I would say that we are all made of mind, body and soul. Not that you can separate them as they are symbiotically bound.

The Bible teaches that our souls, mind and bodies are created on conception (sometime in the womb i think). So my soul, body and mind only came into existance in around 1981.

IMO: However, Jesus is different. Although his mind and body were created in around 3BC, what we would call his 'soul' was with God (or is with God) from the beginning.

As i said, the mind body and soul are symbiotic. This is why Jesus could state that He and the Father are one.

What we know as The Son willingly took on the flesh - to achieve His purpose.

KnightoftheRose · 03-18-2005, 12:58 PM

Hey, Combot, your post reminded me of something I read just a little while ago.

http://bible.org/page.asp?page_id=911

Just thought I'd throw that in here, if you are interested...

KnightoftheRose · 03-18-2005, 01:25 PM

As for the relationship between Father and Son, here is how I see it:

I think there is a difference between being God in substance, being God in spirit, and being God in authority.

One of the more common views is that Jesus was God made manifest - that he is God in the flesh. This seems wrong to me. I don't think God - in His purest form - can be subject to pain, or emotional "roller coasters", as Jesus certainly experienced. I mean God is perfect. That seems to suggest that God is unchanging. Jesus certainly did experience emotional change - despair and pain, certainly - which seems to reject the idea that he was God in the substance.

Another idea is that Jesus was God in the spirit - that he held something of a mystical communion with God. My problem with this view is that it suggests Jesus wasn't really divine - that he merely had a divine connection. The Bible seems pretty clear that Jesus himself is worthy of worship; and the only thing worthy of worship in existence is God Himself. So Jesus had to have been divine in some way, rejecting this view.

The third idea is that Jesus was God in authority. Essentially, God gave Jesus His full authority; he told Jesus to teach man, and to this end, He gave Jesus his full support. Now, if Jesus possessed God's full authority, what differentiates him from God? Absolutely nothing. Jesus would then possess all of God's power, all of His goodness, all of His truth, and everything about Him which is worthy of worship. There would be nothing to differentiate the Son from the Father.

That's how I'm seeing it, anyways...I guess we'll just have see when we're dead.

Virtual_Cliff · 03-18-2005, 01:28 PM

Truthseeker,

While I agree with most of what's been said, I have one or two extra bits:

1) Trying to "understand" is a little bit of a blasphemy. It is the equivalent of trying to "own" or "control" God. Don't feel you need to understand, no-one can.

2) Jesus is the "word" or "expression" of God. God is too big to comprehend, and if we try we will get it wrong. Jesus is our key, our way.

3) God doesn't need to be worshipped in any way. Jesus said, "Not all those who call me Lord Lord will enter the Kingdom of God, but those who keep my commandments." Worship God in your life.

I think you're doing pretty well already.

VC

Sacredstar · 03-18-2005, 02:57 PM

Dear robocombot

Yes the number 3 and Holy Trinity is important in more ways then one and consciousness is multi-dimensional and as such there are multi-dimensional ways of viewing it.

This is my understanding at this point of my own soul's evolution.

1. The soul is also made of 3, known as the subtle bodies, the soul is the energetic blueprint divided into the mental body, emotional body and physical body.

2. The physical body also as an energetic counterpart which is also the soul and this can be defined as Aura, Chakra's and Meridians-nadis once again number 3 which pythagoras said was the perfect number.

3. As above, so below.

We have male, female and child energy. The Holy Trinity.

4. The soul and spirit dwells in the physical temple.

'Behold you are the temple of the living GOD'

A good book to read if you are interested in the subtle bodies is by the renowned author Dr Richard Gerber it is called 'Vibrational Medicine for the 21st Century'.

Blessings in abundance

kim xx

Bandit · 03-18-2005, 03:15 PM

Quote:

I think there is a difference between being God in substance, being God in spirit, and being God in authority.

One of the more common views is that Jesus was God made manifest - that he is God in the flesh. This seems wrong to me. I don't think God - in His purest form - can be subject to pain, or emotional "roller coasters", as Jesus certainly experienced. I mean God is perfect. That seems to suggest that God is unchanging. Jesus certainly did experience emotional change - despair and pain, certainly - which seems to reject the idea that he was God in the substance.

this is good. manifesting and being the literal is different.
Either God is 3 spirits or He is ONE spirit.

Quote:

Another idea is that Jesus was God in the spirit - that he held something of a mystical communion with God. My problem with this view is that it suggests Jesus wasn't really divine - that he merely had a divine connection. The Bible seems pretty clear that Jesus himself is worthy of worship; and the only thing worthy of worship in existence is God Himself. So Jesus had to have been divine in some way, rejecting this view.

for some reason, some just cannot see that there was a spirit of a man in Jesus along with the spirit of God. Otherwise the devil would not have been able to tempt him. Satan cannot tempt God and God cannot be subject to this kind of temptation, because it would limit Him, as if the devil is going to offer 'GOD' the kingdoms of earth.
they used to go as far as to say God left His throne and God died and God shed blood. God is a spirit. We must compare spirit with spirit. Jesus said a spirit hath not flesh and bone as you see me have, and this is after his resurrection.
It is so deep and such a beautiful plan, i just pray someday the church will step out of tradition that has been passed down.

Quote:

The third idea is that Jesus was God in authority. Essentially, God gave Jesus His full authority; he told Jesus to teach man, and to this end, He gave Jesus his full support. Now, if Jesus possessed God's full authority, what differentiates him from God? Absolutely nothing. Jesus would then possess all of God's power, all of His goodness, all of His truth, and everything about Him which is worthy of worship. There would be nothing to differentiate the Son from the Father.

this is good too. the right hand is authority given.

didymus · 03-18-2005, 10:47 PM

I found an interesting quote in Acts.

Acts 3: 19-21.

I'm reading this out of the NIV and I noticed it slightly different in the NKJV.

NIV; Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord, and that He may send the Christ, who has been appointed for you-- even Jesus. He must remain in heaven until the time comes for God to restore everything as he promised long ago through His holy prophets.

NKJV says; repent therefore and be converted , that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshment may come from the prescence of the Lord, and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before, whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.

These are two very different translations to me. The first almost speaks of the Christ as being totally seperate from Jesus. Even Jesus received the Christ and we will to. God has a Christ for all of us. It also makes a clear distinction between God and Jesus. Here God is God and Jesus is human. That's how it reads to me at least.

The second reads very diffferently. First is the language of being converted which immediately evokes a reaction with some folks versus repent. Repent sounds much less threatening to me that convert. Here is sounds like he will send us the physical jesus versus the christ that even jesus received.

Basstian · 03-18-2005, 11:01 PM

Humm I take the even Jesus as a statement this would be how I break it down.

and that He may send the Christ, who has been appointed for you-- even Jesus.
and that He may send the Christ, who has been appointed for you-- Jesus.
and that He may send the Christ, even Jesus.
and that He may send Christ Jesus who has been appointed for you.

This really goes with the NKJV much better
and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before,

Sometimes I feel the NIV can simplify to the point of getting confusing. But still is a great study aid. Good to see you comparing

didymus · 03-18-2005, 11:06 PM

I'm not sure but I think that the NIV may have been a closer translation to the greek. Those two verses are drastically different from one another. Enough so that they evoke 2 very different interpretations.

truthseeker · 03-18-2005, 11:28 PM

The replies are awesome. I appreciate the lessons, everyone.

But now we are getting somewhere. You see, I understand the Trinity concept. But I just can't get my head around calling God, Jesus. I can say Jesus was the Trinity because I recognize the God in him. But I can not call Jesus, God. I can call Jesus Christ but not God. It's like I bump my head against the wall right before I do it. I listen to people who just love Jesus so much - I do too. Would I know God as I know him today without Jesus? NO. I give honor to Jesus but my allegiance is to God.

It took two thousand years for us to get a hold of what this man was saying and we are still trying to get it. He was waaaaayyyy beyond his time. God had consumed in Jesus what would otherwise be a man's soul subjected to evil. In all God's power, God had allowed Jesus to recieve Him. But God in essence is not flesh. That is why it is so difficult for me to understand that they are all ONE. I can understand how they are all ONE in Jesus but I can't understand why they are all ONE in God.

As far as the bible verses are concerned, the KJV was written after the Nicean creed so that may have some influence on the 'us' at Genesis 1:26 and Genesis 3:22. We all know that use of language has an effect on these kinds of things. I mean all that I say very respectfully and I question these things because I want to walk the right way. Is Jesus God's new name now? I really don't get it.

didymus · 03-18-2005, 11:54 PM

This is my personal opinion but to me God is God. Jesus was a man who was filled with God's spirit. He had a channel to God that was wide open and therefore was able to walk accordingly.

According to some reading I have done regarding Greek translation the use of one by Jesus as being one with God and praying the apostles would be one translated to one in unity not being. This difference is very important. Jesus din't say he and God were one being. They were one in unity and purpose. The form of one was ein.

truth644 · 03-19-2005, 12:06 AM

T.S.

you are great! It is completely evident that you have a desire to know God. That is what God wants. It appears that you are looking into his word. If earnest prayer is also involved...you will have understanding. A teacher of mine said :the more I learn about Him, the more I realize that i know very little about Him.

Many people filed with the Holy Spirit are unable to explain the Trinity. They just look you in the eye tap their chest and simply say "I just know it". Their desire to experience God has given them a peace and knowledge ("knowing it") that passes all understanding. That "knowing it" cant really be explained except that you and God both know it's true. That's the unspoken communication that he is seeking with each and every one of us. Unfortunately too many people decline to search with their hearts until their human understanding can put Him into the appropriate file folder.

Semper Fidelis

truthseeker · 03-19-2005, 01:04 AM

Good to see you again, truth644.

I am well aware that I can not even try to match up with the wisdom of God. I am just seeking Him. I believe in progressiveness of knowledge being progressiveness of the spirit. My faith is that God will not allow me to be lead astray. I also believe that the forms of Christianity today can be egoistic and I'm trying not to get caught up in that. So I ask questions because I don't want to get bulked up on the Son of Man and loose sight of the spiritual aspect as quite a few Christians do. I read and I know what's right. However, I don't want to be in danger of leaning to my own understanding (so I'll lean on the understanding of CR and blame it on you guys when I get to the pearly gates

).

robocombot · 03-19-2005, 01:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by truthseeker

As far as the bible verses are concerned, the KJV was written after the Nicean creed so that may have some influence on the 'us' at Genesis 1:26 and Genesis 3:22.

The plurality in Genesis is also in the Hebrew - it is not a later change. This has caused some to suspect the early Isrealites of Polytheism.

Basstian · 03-19-2005, 01:53 AM

Mt 16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
Mt 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
Mt 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Quote:

Originally Posted by truthseeker

(so I'll lean on the understanding of CR and blame it on you guys when I get to the pearly gates

).

LOL ok well it looks like to me this will be the safest answer for both of us. maybe all of us.

And without controversy great is the mystery