Understanding the Trinity

[mee]

Originally Posted by Dor

The Father is not the same as the Son; the Son is not the same as the Holy Spirit; and the Holy Spirit is not the same as Father. They are not three gods and not three beings. They are three distinct persons; yet, they are all the one God. The Bible says that Jesus is God in flesh, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.....and the word became flesh and dwelt among us" (John 1:1, 14) and, "For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form" (Col. 2:9). Jesus, therefore, is both God and man. Jesus is completely human, but He also has a divine nature.

Jesus said the Father was greater than He not because Jesus is not God, but because Jesus was also a man and as a man he was in a lower position. He was ". . . made for a little while lower than the angels . . ." (Heb. 2:9). Also in Phil. 2:5-8, it says that Jesus "emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men . . ."
So, Jesus was not denying that He was God. He was simply acknowledging that He was also a man and as a man, he was subject to the laws of God so that He might redeem those who were under the law; namely, sinners (Gal. 4:4-5). As a man of course he would pray to the Father cause the human side was definately below God.

Jesus (God the son) has existed from eternity with God the Father, and God the Holy Spirit. John 1:1,14 says, "In the beginning was the Word (Jesus) and the Word was with God and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God...and the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory." Jesus made reference to his pre-earth existence, "Father, glorify Me with the glory I had with thee before the world was" (John 17:5). Right now Jesus is in heaven with the Father just as He was before creation. No scripture gives us a clearer picture of who Jesus is than Phi 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

Even when Jesus walked the earth in a human body, He was fully divine, "For in Christ all the fullness of deity dwells in bodily form" (Col 2:9). God bore witness to the fact Jesus was divine by raising Him from the dead, "Jesus was declared the Son of God with power by the resurrection from the dead" (Rom 1:4).

Actually it is pretty clear in my KJV.

maybe if you use a translation that sticks to the original thought you will not be misled thats the problem people are misled

[truthseeker]

Originally Posted by InLove

Hello again, Truthseeker, and thank you for the welcome. This is my first reply to a thread, so I hope I do things properly.

I also hope that this is not an overly-simplistic idea to write here, but have you ever heard the nature of the Trinity explained in comparison to H2O? Below freezing, it is ice; at boiling point, it is steam. Between these points, it is water.

So the Christian who talks about the Trinity is talking about God as Father, God as Son, and God as Holy Spirit--working in different capacities according to what God sees is appropriate and needed by His children.

Well, now I've gone and dipped more than my toes in the water (H20). Can't believe I started with a subject like The Trinity!

InLove, that is beautiful. I have never heard of the H2O concept. I can certainly relate to that understanding. Thank You!!!

[truthseeker]

Originally Posted by Faithfulservant

1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.


Not a Word.. THE WORD.. and these three are ONE.

Fantastic!!!
There is so much love around here....

[truthseeker]

Originally Posted by Abogado del Diablo

God or Brahman or Tao (or whatever you want to call the concept) manifests in as many ways as there are people to manifest to.

Fabulous!!! YEAH!!!!

(I guess I'm just the cheerleader right now...)

I am sorry I missed this conversation over the weekend. So much wonderful dialogue going on!! It's difficult for people to see the 'God Thing' like how you just put it, Abogado, but I see it just like that. To see it articulated in such a manner got me really excited.

[truthseeker]

Praise God.

First, FaithfulServant, Mee is not reading the information you are putting out because Mee is programmed not to.

Originally Posted by mee

maybe if you use a translation that sticks to the original thought you will not be misled thats the problem people are misled

True, people are mislead. Right now, you are the leader of the pack here in this thread. NWT is not a stem of the Septuagint or the Tenach. The NWT is a stem of the KJV. If the KJV is wrong, then NWT is still an interpretation of KJV; with extras added in or certain information taken out to further the point that the religion wants you to understand. That is why Christianity and Jehovah's Witnesses can't commune - not because you are the only ones who recognize the truth.

[Quahom1]

Easy everyone...this is a discussion, not a free for all. Perhaps starting with the phrase "I think" or "In my opinion"...will difuse this discussion a bit.

Speak easy, the ears like soft sounds.

Or biblically speaking "A gentle word turns away wrath..."

v/r

Q

[Faithfulservant]

My point in posting the entirety of the quotes he's posting is because I know that he has not read them.. Hes getting them from the handbook "Should You Believe in the Trinity" I also know from several ex-JW's that they are not allowed to read anything that negates their teachings because its considered apostate. I do not believe he is even reading any of the posts.. I believe that he sees a topic pretty much and finds the literature that relates to the topic and cuts and pastes it. He said that I am using biased sources that are anti-JW when in fact im actually reading the sources that HE is using.. some which are also Anti-JW.

[Dor]

Originally Posted by mee

maybe if you use a translation that sticks to the original thought you will not be misled thats the problem people are misled

Frederick W. Franz: Main translator. Took liberal arts sequence at University of Cincinnati; 21 semester hours of classical Greek, some Latin. Partially completed a two-hour survey course in Biblical Greek in junior year; course titled "The New Testament--A course in grammar and translation." Left in spring of 1914 before completing junior year. Self-taught in Spanish, biblical Hebrew and Aramaic. Entered Brooklyn headquarters facility of Watchtower Society in 1920. "What a blessing it was to study Bible Greek under Professor Arthur Kensella! Under Dr. Joseph Harry, an author of some Greek works, I also studied the classical Greek. I knew that if I wanted to become a Presbyterian clergyman, I had to have a command of Bible Greek. So I furiously applied myself and got passing grades" (The Watchtower, May 1, 1987, p. 24). Franz only took one 2-hour credit class of "Bible Greek" but 21 hours of classical Greek. According to the course catalog of 1911, Arthur Kensella was not a professor of Greek, as Franz wrote, but an "instructor in Greek." Kensella did not have a Ph.D. and he therefore taught entry-level courses. Hmm seems misleading looking at the quote he made in the watchtower.

Nathan H. Knorr: No training in biblical languages. Entered Brooklyn headquarters in 1923; 3rd president of WTS from 1942 to 1977.

Milton G. Henschel: No training in biblical languages. Private secretary and traveling companion to N. H. Knorr from late 1940s until early 1970s. 4th president of WTS from 1992 to 2000.

Albert D. Schroeder: No training in biblical languages. Took 3 years of mechanical engineering, unspecified language courses in college, dropped out in 1932 and soon entered Brooklyn headquarters. Registrar of "Gilead School" from 1942 to 1959.

Karl Klein: No training in biblical languages. Entered Brooklyn headquarters in 1925; member of Writing Dept. since 1950.

George D. Gangas: No training in biblical languages. Greek-speaking Turkish national, entered Brooklyn headquarters in 1928 as a Greek translator from English to modern Greek publications.

These were the translators of the as you put it correct version when Franz was the only man capable of doing translation work.


Franz ‘freely admitted his presuppositions’. These were set by previous Watchtower doctrines, some of which he himself had a hand in formulating. As "head theologian" and vice-president of the Watchtower Society, Franz was required to ensure that his work was consistent with existing doctrine.


When reading the Jehovah's Witnesses' New World Translation it is obvious that they have published a Bible for the purpose of teaching their own doctrine. They have done this by changing the meaning of the most authentic ancient Greek manuscripts of the New Testament. The New World Translation has failed the test that says that the best English Bible translation will tell us the exact thoughts of the original writers of the Hebrew and Greek portions of the Bible in a way that is easily understood. The New World Translation does not accurately translate what the New Testament writers said about Jesus.

[juantoo3]

Kind Regards, mee!

Originally Posted by mee

maybe if you use a translation that sticks to the original thought you will not be misled thats the problem people are misled

I am curious, I thought JW's were people too? Is it possible JW's can be mislead?

[truthseeker]

JWs are not people, they are JWs.

JWs can not be misled because the NWT is the word of Jehovah and Jehovah does not mislead his people.

[earl]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

I'm just thinking out loud here.

Genesis 1:2 "Now the earth was a shapeless, chaotic mass, with the Spirit of God brooding over the dark vapors."

Genesis 1:26 "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, ..."

Genesis 1:27 "So God created man in his own image...male and female he created them."

Genesis 3:8 "Now the man and his wife heard the sound of the Lord God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day...

Duality, then singularity, with man becoming a duality. God as spirit, and God with physical form, and moving as a man would...

Matthew 3:16 "After his baptism, as soon as Jesus came up out of the water, the heavens were opened to him and he saw the Spirit of God coming down in the form of a dove."

John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

John 1:2 "He was in the beginning with God."

John 1:3 "All things were made through Him, and without Him, nothing was made that was made."

John 1:4 "In Him was Life, and the life was the light of men."

Again, there is that Duality, plus a decree that Jesus?...created the Universe?

John 8:12 "Then Jesus spoke to them again, saying "I am the light of the world; he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life."

We read of the Father and the Word, with the Holy Spirit Hovering.

We See the Son, the Holy Spirit and hear the Voice of the Father at the baptism of Jesus (all at the same time).

Jesus is called and calls Himself the Light, the Word, the way. John calls Jesus the Word being not only God, but being with God.

Perhaps the Trinity can be explained as the Father being the Mind (consciousness of God), the Son being God in the Flesh, and the Spirit of God as, well, the breath of God.

Man is made in the image and likeness of God, and we have a mind, body and spirit, that makes us, us! Our minds and spirits are in our bodies, and our bodies are with our minds and spirits.

hmmm

v/r

Q

Perhaps this response of mine would be better placed in the comparative studies area, but the thread is here. Though i was raised nominally Christian, spent most of my years studying Buddhism and only in recent years have I given much thought to traditional Christian subjects. now when i do i tend to see many intersections between buddhist thought and Christian. Such is the case here and your notion of the Trinity as Mind, Flesh, and Spirit of God, got me to thinking of a similar notion in buddhism. They have the concept of the trikaya: in buddhist thought every buddha manifests 3 "bodies," the dharmakaya, the sambhogakaya, and the nirmanakaya. The dharmakaya is the "body of Truth," the supra-ontological, formless Ultimate Reality beyond any conceptual descriptions with their inherent limitations-i.e., the "Father?" The sambhogakaya is the "reward body," the body of pure light and bliss visible only to those of high spiritual attainment and are the energies of enlightenment; i.e., the "Holy Spirit?" The nirmanakaya is the body of transformation, ("on this level the Buddha has the power to assume any appearance for enlightening and liberating sentient beings"); i.e., the "Son?"

Interesting, huh? Have a good one, Earl

[truthseeker]

Originally Posted by earl

Perhaps this response of mine would be better placed in the comparative studies area, but the thread is here. Though i was raised nominally Christian, spent most of my years studying Buddhism and only in recent years have I given much thought to traditional Christian subjects. now when i do i tend to see many intersections between buddhist thought and Christian. Such is the case here and your notion of the Trinity as Mind, Flesh, and Spirit of God, got me to thinking of a similar notion in buddhism. They have the concept of the trikaya: in buddhist thought every buddha manifests 3 "bodies," the dharmakaya, the sambhogakaya, and the nirmanakaya. The dharmakaya is the "body of Truth," the supra-ontological, formless Ultimate Reality beyond any conceptual descriptions with their inherent limitations-i.e., the "Father?" The sambhogakaya is the "reward body," the body of pure light and bliss visible only to those of high spiritual attainment and are the energies of enlightenment; i.e., the "Holy Spirit?" The nirmanakaya is the body of transformation, ("on this level the Buddha has the power to assume any appearance for enlightening and liberating sentient beings"); i.e., the "Son?"

Interesting, huh? Have a good one, Earl

Lovely analogy, Earl. I wonder how the Vatican feels about that?

[InLove]

I certainly do like your signature.

[Quahom1]

Excellent points!

Please continue...

v/r

Q

[mee]

The Trinity doctrine, is borrowed from pagan sources and was developed in its present form centuries after Bible writing was completed .so many people are misled to believe that it is bible based when it is not .

And I heard another voice out of heaven say: "Get out of her,(Babylon the great) my people, if YOU do not want to share with her in her sins, and if YOU do not want to receive part of her plagues(revelation 18;4) oh dear christendom claims to represent the God of the bible but really is full of babylonish teachings . no wonder Jehovah and Jesus are going to destroy the world empire of false religion .(revelation 18;21) all the religions of the world have babylonish teachings attached to them, but never mind , Jehovah has it all in control ,soon false religion will be gone,and only pure teaching will remain.(rev 19;1-3)and we still have time to get out of her.but not for long.

Before [the] statute gives birth to [anything], [before the] day has passed by just like chaff, before there comes upon YOU people the burning anger of Jehovah, before there comes upon YOU the day of Jehovah’s anger, seek Jehovah, all YOU meek ones of the earth, who have practiced His own judicial decision. Seek righteousness, seek meekness. Probably YOU may be concealed in the day of Jehovah’s anger(zephaniah2;2-3)