Universal Salvation?

[RubySera_Martin]

Wil, you've got a valid point. However, my question regards factual reality. Is it true that the idea of universal salvation depends on getting rid of the idea of hell as a literal place of punishment for unbelievers?

The facts in this case are ideas. I understand from the original post that there is a fully formed idea we are working with--the idea of universal salvation. And I am not quite sure what all belongs to that idea.

Am I too abstract? I tend to err on that side. After all, ideas are not things you can hold in your hand like some facts are. I just don't know how to make it more concrete.

[taijasi]

Originally Posted by RubySera_Martin

Wil, you've got a valid point. However, my question regards factual reality. Is it true that the idea of universal salvation depends on getting rid of the idea of hell as a literal place of punishment for unbelievers?

Ruby,

I think that you, and others, have clearly outlined the challenge! There are many, among them our own friends and family, who still maintain a belief in something called `hell.' But instead of even considering that perhaps hell is more so a state of mind, or a temporary condition of our existence - universal in that we have all been there ... people do, indeed, insist on concretizing the notion, and making it a place.

Perhaps part of the very challenge is that the Church's scare tactics, which Virtual_Cliff mentions, have worked too well!!! I mean, many people are afraid to even question their beliefs, and would rather nod & bow to tradition ("if it was good enough for my forefathers, it's good enough for me!") than try and apply Reason to their faith. And this is the distinction between Tradition as something legitimate and worthy of preserving ... and tradition as just another name for superstition.

If there is one phrase that I would most like to see forever stricken from the whole of Christianity, it is "fear of God." What an absolutely HORRID notion, and disgusting thing to introduce to the pure & innocent hearts of young children.

Here I would emphasize how sorely we need to re-evaluate many conventional interpretations and mistranslations. Consider how different would be the understanding conveyed (to people of ALL ages) if we substituted any of the following phrases for "fear of God":

• Respect for God
  
• Veneration of God
  
• Recognition of God (or God's Presence)
  
• Glorification (or Praise) of God
  
• LOVE of God
  

(And here I recall a line from the liturgy that goes something like, "Is is indeed right and salutary, that we should at all times and in all places give Him thanks and praise.")

... sighhh ... but instead of this, we inherit the notion of fearing God, and I mean, come on - HOW are we supposed to feel free to really contemplate ANYTHING spiritual (eg, QUESTION the Bible!), let alone the confused, outdated, ridiculous notion of an eternal hell ... if we are too busy cowering and cringing, FEARING our all-Powerful God!?!

And dammit, do NOT push it TOO far, or BANG-ZAP!!! ... you'll get Zeus' mighty Lightning-bolt upside yo head. (Do people realize that the Zeus imagery is probably still just about THE prevailing archetypal image still back of the Judeo-Christian `God?' Not to say for everyone here, or everyone, just the prevailing imagery. Wouldn't most folks agree?)

Bah, I feel like I'm soap-boxing it. sorry ... The fear thing just turns my stomach! And the hell-damnation-sin complex is right in there with it. These all kind of swirl together and - at least for me, imho - form the dark, ugly side of Christianity. And this is, and has always been for me personally (being raised in a loving, Christian family), very sad - and a travesty of the Founder's Intent.

All that said, as an esotericist, I actually do believe hell - but only as a condition of our consciousness ... inhabited by all of us on occasion, by most of us often enough, and also passed through (darn-near universally) after death. The key word there, however, is `through,' as in IMpermanent. Exceptions are EXCEEDINGLY rare ... happily enough!

Love and Light,

taijasi

[China Cat Sunflower]

Originally Posted by RubySera_Martin

... my question regards factual reality. Is it true that the idea of universal salvation depends on getting rid of the idea of hell as a literal place of punishment for unbelievers?

That's a really interesting question Ruby! I think the answer is no. It seems to me that the idea of salvation has evolved into a question of whether or not a person, in a Christian sense, can consider themselves an honorary citizen (in good standing) of the "new Israel" (whatever that is). Such standing seems to be conferred on one by virtue of his belief in the ability of Jesus death to atone for inherent "sin" (whatever that is). Hell, for the most part, seems to be a medievel construction having little to do with strictly scriptural exegesis.

My only criticism of those Christians liberal enough to have relieved themselves of the notion of a divinely ordained everlasting torment is that they haven't applied the same logic to the notion of heaven. I mean, read Revelation's description of the heavenly city and tell me you don't think it's entirely symbolic and allegorical. Then tell me what else you base a literal concept of heaven on. (not you, I mean anyone)

Chris

[wil]

Ok, I guess my current thinking is maybe no. I mean I feel I can be saved with the abyss around the corner....if others need to create hell, if the collective consciousness continues to have a need for it it doesn't affect me...accept that you and I are one...so if you head to hell so does a portion of me, yikes.

And as long as others believe in it, they are out there enjoying their condemning nature and tossin some folks in, some that get tossed willingly and others that don't believe hence can't be tossed...

So if we get rid of hell it makes this concept of Universal Salvation easier to swallow, but if we leave it there and allow people to grow through there beliefs...and allow these fears to be exposed, fears which in the light of day disappear...than maybe our souls will have grown more by the idea of hell being around for a number or incarnations allowing us to spend time with the idea...and yet eventually return to source.

[RubySera_Martin]

Wil and Chris, you make me laugh! Thanks for putting a unique perspective on this often sinister topic .

[wil]

"I just got back from a church retreat where we were learning to be more judgemental" - Homer Simpson

[RubySera_Martin]

Originally Posted by wil

"I just got back from a church retreat where we were learning to be more judgemental" - Homer Simpson

As in self-critical???

[Virtual_Cliff]

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

My only criticism of those Christians liberal enough to have relieved themselves of the notion of a divinely ordained everlasting torment is that they haven't applied the same logic to the notion of heaven. I mean, read Revelation's description of the heavenly city and tell me you don't think it's entirely symbolic and allegorical. Then tell me what else you base a literal concept of heaven on. (not you, I mean anyone)

You're right. I'm an agnostic about the after-life, but I'm reckoning on there not being one. If there is I'll be pleasantly (I hope) surprised. I regard the Kingdom of God as a state of mind - or spirit, to be more precise. That's not to say you can get there by concentrating hard or by secret knowledge. It's more a case of knowing how loved you are and letting that love lead you where it will.

[Dondi]

Originally Posted by Virtual_Cliff

You're right. I'm an agnostic about the after-life, but I'm reckoning on there not being one. If there is I'll be pleasantly (I hope) surprised. I regard the Kingdom of God as a state of mind - or spirit, to be more precise. That's not to say you can get there by concentrating hard or by secret knowledge. It's more a case of knowing how loved you are and letting that love lead you where it will.

What is your reckoning, VC?

I really cannot fathom just not existing. I suppose it would be like falling asleep, but not ever waking up.

I know, I didn't exist before I was born, so there was no "me" to contemplate anything in the past. But after having already experiencing a conscience and a conscious mind for the short time I've been around, it would be mind boggling for me not to go on, ya know? Some people are ok with this. One thing's for sure, one way or we'll find out. There's no way around it.

[RubySera_Martin]

Originally Posted by Dondi

One thing's for sure, one way or we'll find out. There's no way around it.

Or maybe we won't. We'll just stop being. No more worries. No more joys. No more responsibilities. Nothing.

The thing is, we won't know that we don't know because we will no longer be. We won't even care that we never found out because we no longer are.

All of this speculation is a game, something with which to occupy our brain. This brief space of consciousness is ours to enjoy or waste. But it's given to us and will be taken from us.

Like Virtual Cliff says, if we go on we will be pleasantly surpised.

Virtual Cliff, I really like what you said about trusting Love to guide us. That was just what I needed right now.

[Dondi]

True, Ruby. We wouldn't know if that's all she wrote. But I do agree with you both about Love. If there was anything we could take with us, it's that. So, Keep on Lovin'!!

[wil]

Originally Posted by RubySera_Martin

Quote:
Originally Posted by wil
"I just got back from a church retreat where we were learning to be more judgemental" - Homer Simpson


As in self-critical???

This is a quote from an irreverent TV cartoon. I think it actually fits quite often though....

Love your thought of makng it right.

[Pico]

Originally Posted by Elvendon

Something I have been thinking about for a long time is Apocatastasis - that is, universal salvation. Originally posited over a thousand years ago by Origen, a greek early church scholar, and later carried on by many thinkers from Saint Gregory of Nyssa to Julian of Norwich, it teaches that all moral agents will be ultimately saved - though evil individuals will be punished for an undefined length of time - even the sourest, most evil devil will return to God.

This teaching was declared anathema by the Synod of Constantinople in 543. My question is, what do other posters here think about this teaching? Do you think it should be more readily accepted by modern Christians or do you believe there is a better justification for eternal punishment?

Blessed be the Holy Three

Elvendon

Have you read the Apocalypse of Peter? In that it says Peter asked Jesus why God let's people suffer for an eternity, and Jesus says it's a secret but eventualy everybody gets let out. Besides an eternity can only exists within time, who's to say God will allow time to last forever? There will be an end anyway.

But I don't think Fallen Angels will get salvation. Not only are we made in God's image (unlike Angels), humans live disconnected from God, due to sin, here on earth. It is our decision to believe in God based on faith. Whereas angels live directly in God's presence, so they don't need faith in God, they have knowledge of God and realy no reason at all to not do what he says.

Plus, we are the most beloved of all creation, which is why God sent his Son to suffer our punishment so we can be with Him in Heaven; not the dark angels tricking us into disobeying Him.

[Virtual_Cliff]

Originally Posted by Dondi

What is your reckoning, VC?

I really cannot fathom just not existing. I suppose it would be like falling asleep, but not ever waking up.

It's easier for me now that I've known people who've died. I was there when my mother passed away. It was the saddest and one of the most beautiful days of my life. So deep and peaceful. The ripples from my mother's kindness continue to spread so she has in a small way changed the course of creation and her presence will still be felt when I am gone. That is immortality.

I suppose it works the same for those who leave a bad legacy, but I leave that in the hands of God to redeem.