Virginia Tech

[Tao_Equus]

Well seems this killer was a bomb waiting to explode for some time. Already, 2 years ago, diagnosed as a psychotic with a high potential for violence, information, it seems, that was not known by campus staff.
Not content with a suicide note he prepared and posted a multi-media press release in the 2 hrs between the first 2 and the remaining murders.

I think it simplistic and naive to apportion blame to the police and campus authorities for not catching him in this 2hrs between his attacks. They initially suspected someone else, the first girl to be murdered boyfreind and were following, as would be expected, that line of enquiry.

Returning to what I said in my previous post here, I feel it is incumbant on all campus authorties to now review and implement a program for spotting those individuals with a high potential suicide risk. Again I state I know this is not a simple task but this guy, like most suicides, gave clear warnings of impending breakdown that were spotted by staff and students alike. A referal to a competent psychiatrist of his behaviour in the months before this event would have led to a simple diagnosis of psychosis with a high potential for violence or self harm.
17th Angel you say that not all insular and withdrawn kids are a risk. Psychiatry is aware of this and is actually pretty reliably able to distinguish between angst and psychosis. What I suggest is not just to prevent massacres of this scale but the 1000's of kids that take their own lives every year too. If we are going to do anything to help all these people, and their victims, then there is no other way but some system of monitoring by those that have most contact with subsequent referal to competant proffesionals. These people like I say again and again do tend to ring rather loudly on a warning bell. But even then its still not easy, and a system that critics could accuse of attempting to make everybody 'smiley happy people' must also be guarded against. But what alternatives are there?

TE

[wil]

Last night we had a prayer vigil instigated by the Virginia Tech shootings, for all those in violent situations around the world.

It was our normal night for our Wednesday night meditation contemplation...third Wednesday meant Dances for Universal Peace...however we sent out an email saying we weren't dancing...we'd be holding those who feel turmoil in love and light.

I found out that one of the ministers I know has been down there with an ecumenical ministerial group...supporting students, family faculty, and police. Different religions, differing denominations coming together to be there for who ever needs counseling or consoling, they have a gym, inside no hubub of cameras or reporters...just groups and pairs in prayer and contemplation.

I also found out that another youth leader I play with at conferences...he was teaching that day and locked down with his students...anxiously awaiting what to do next...for hours. They were all safe in another building, but with the rumors and the news, they didn't feel so safe. He was there to assist in keeping their spirits calm and uplifted.

Our little meditation service was wonderful....we filled the table with candles as the time went on...holding them all in love and light...the students, the families of students, the shooters family and friends, everyone that is under the stress that could lead to such an event, and everyone in turmoil in the world.

One lady was there for the first time. She drove over an hour...she came to dance, as she wasn't on our email list, she didn't know we weren't dancing. At the end when we stood up in a circle and voiced our prayers, and our gratefulness to G-d, she said, "I don't know any of you people, but I am so glad I was here. I came to dance, and when I was told there was no dancing, I was dissapointed and was about to leave. Then I was told it would be a prayer circle, and then I was told it would be about Virginia Tech...I thought I could use some time in prayer. I want to tell you how wonderful it was to be here and am very glad I stayed." We later found out she is Quaker, and recently out of seminary...our focus on lifting everyone in the light, and on decreasing violence was very in line with her beliefs.

She thought it was a mistake and accident she showed up for the first time when dance was cancelled and we were in prayer instead. It goes to show there are no accidents.

And like this horrific incident, while it is hard for us humans to make sense of anytime anyone makes their transition, it is even harder when they are struck down not in war, not with disease, not in old age...but 'out of the blue'... While we never know the bigger picture...we do know they are not suffering now...and somehow somewhere he meant it for evil, but G-d will make it good.

[wil]

Originally Posted by TE

Where he came from is irrelevant. And I find it sad that so many of the individuals comments I have seen on this have made point of noting he is on some sort of visa and using that ugly perjorative american phrased word 'alien'. Why is it important? I think it has something to do with the xenophobia currently being whipped up by your governments state run media.

As the story unfolds it appears you are correct. And as I look around the net at papers not only in the US but around the world they almost all represent him as a South Korean on a Visa...truth but not the whole truth.

He was from Centreville, Virginia, his parents came here when he was 8. For all practical purposes this is local boy. And his issues are fairly homegrown as well. The music he listened to, the gun culture of the US, his offbeat prose...no at this time it doesn't really look like being South Korean had much to do with it....a troubled soul.

[Pathless]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

I think it simplistic and naive to apportion blame to the police and campus authorities for not catching him in this 2hrs between his attacks.

Your point is well taken, Tao. Due to our fast-as-light information-on-demand culture, we are given access to events like this as they unfold, which opens up the range of ways in which we can respond. Personally, I dislike the way the media handles events like this and the mass hysteria that ensues. I also don't trust the mainstream media and question what is disseminated as "news." I do wish that more people would think critically about the news, rather than ingesting the fearful and sensational presentations that are served up.

As far as Cho Seung-Hui and mental health is concerned, I did read an article from NBC yesterday (can't find a link this morning, sorry... the story has disappeared from the page in the inundation of "news" on this event) that said that he had been to see mental health professionals in the past and was almost committed at one time. I do completely agree with you that he could have benefitted from some attention and care from a competent and caring mental health team.

To me though, this recurring story of school shootings is symptomatic of larger ills in a culture that values commodities, sensation, and capital over relationships and humanity. That's a soapbox that I can stand on in another thread, perhaps.

There is one new development in this school shooting, though, that we haven't seen before. Since the perpetrator was not a white suburban kid (although in many ways Cho is quintessentially American), there is the same kind of xenophobic and racial backlash that we experienced after 9/11. We see pictures of South Koreans coming forward with Virginia Tech signs, much as many of Asian/Middle-Eastern/Indian descent could be seen propping up American flags after 9/11--as if to say, "Don't be angry with me. I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. It wasn't me. I love America. I do." What is this about? To me, it seems to be a reaction/response that stems from fear. It's as if they are afraid of being accused of guilt by association and consequently pumelled by the bully of the playground.

Yes, Virginia Tech was a tragedy. So was Columbine and so were all the rest. But I'm sick of the way many Americans wallow in these tragedies, soaking up sorrow like sponges and basting in fear. Who benefits from that? The victims? No. Their families? No. Hell, if someone I loved had been gunned down, I would be devastated, and the last thing I would want would be a media circus over the event, and an outpouring of Hallmark-style sentiment from the entire nation, which ultimately would be just a bunch of strangers who could not share in my deeply personal suffering at such a loss. Indeed, I would feel emotionally raped and cheated by such an outpouring of fear-based "sympathy."

The other thing that irritates me about the sorrow-wallowing after events like this is that it is totally myopic. We've already mentioned the tragedies unfolding daily in Iraq and how those do not elicit the same kind of hysterical mass-response--not that I want them to, because if that were the case, nothing would happen except a bunch of flailing, wailing, and moaning. Or maybe something else would happen--maybe confronted with the brutal reality of daily murder and chaos in Iraq our country would re-assess its foreign policy and agenda in the Gulf.

What about the people in Palestine, suffering daily? Where is the week-long (decade-long?) media circus about that? Darfur--well, we approach a media circus about Darfur, and write letters and take action. Interesting that we do that there, but not in Iraq, where we are more directly responsible for the atrocities. Nor in Palestine, where our support (complict or explicit) of Israel's military agenda allows the atrocities to not only continue but to escalate.

Virginia Tech. Let the families and friends grieve in peace. The rest of us need to get over ourselves and do something. You don't like it? Reach out to an alienated kid in your neighborhood, for Christ's sake.

[Saltmeister]

As more information comes out, we discover we were wrong about this guy.

1. Growing up in America, not on study with a visa.
His parents came to America when he was eight. Since coming to America, life didn't really get much better. The family was poor.

2. More like some kind of rebel punk kid than a heartbroken lover.
It was thought at first it had something to do with a relationship break up. The reason I believe is because the girl he killed in the first shooting had a boyfrield/ex-boyfriend or roommate who had recently been involved in a violent confrontation with guns. He was the first suspect.

Va. Tech awarding degrees to victims - Yahoo! News

Police said that after the first shooting, in which two students were killed, they believed that it was a domestic dispute, and that the gunman had fled the campus. Police went looking for a young man, Karl David Thornhill, who had once shot guns at a firing range with the roommate of one of the victims. But police said Thornhill is no longer under suspicion.

That explains why the university and police took little action in the first two hours after the first shooting. They thought it was that guy.

They had the wrong man.

Cho Seung-Hui didn't have a girlfriend; he wasn't into romance.

3. He wrote violent literature and poetry - mind of a killer?
He was doing an English major, but his work was particularly disturbing. The stories, poems and plays he wrote almost always involved violence, hatred and dangerous weapons.

Lecturers, academics and supervisors at the university were shocked at the stuff he wrote.

4. Sociopath? Psychopath?
No girlfriend. Comes up with violent stories. What else?

Not much of a social life. Doesn't talk much. Loner. Does his own thing. Pursues his own agenda. Secretive. Abnormal world view. Doesn't conform. Anti-social.

5. Hates/Angry at Society
We can get quite a few hints on his personality, attitude and world view from the so-called "Manifesto" he sent in a package to NBC on Monday between the two shootings. The Manifesto contained pictures, audio clips and other content that conveyed his anger at the world and society.

The rest of the world has it wrong and he's got it right. Everyone else is corrupt. Victim of society. Laughing stock. Object of ridicule.

You had a hundred billion chances and ways to have avoided today. But you decided to spill my blood. You forced me into a corner and gave me only one option. The decision was yours. Now you have blood on your hands that will never wash off.

6. The Rest of the World is Corrupt, Blind and Can't See
Everybody else is self-absorbed, self-indulgent, obsessed with money and material goods and snobs. He's disgusted and disillusioned with life and society.

Your Mercedes wasn't enough, you brats. Your golden necklaces weren't enough, you snobs. Your trust funds wasn't enough. Your vodka and cognac wasn't enough. All your debaucheries weren't enough. Those weren't enough to fulfill your hedonistic needs. You had everything.

7. Martyr, Rebel, Patriot dying for a Noble Cause
He's a martyr dying for a noble cause. He was persecuted and this is his final act of defiance. His honourable death. He's the victor, the hero. The rebel with a cause. The one who had the truth. The true believer. The patriot.

He mentions in his Manifesto people like Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold, involved in the Columbine High School massacre. Obviously he wanted to die like them. Cho Seung-Hui's rebel personality also makes him less of a "South Korean" and more of an American as American culture is more liberal and Cho seems to have that mentality.

You have vandalized my heart, raped my soul and torched my conscience. You thought it was one pathetic boy's life you were extinguishing. Thanks to you, I die like Jesus Christ, to inspire generations of the weak and the defenseless people.

Do you know what it feels to be spit on your face and to have trash shoved down your throat? Do you know what it feels like to dig your own grave? Do you know what it feels like to have throat slashed from ear to ear? Do you know what it feels like to be torched alive? Do you know what it feels like to be humiliated and be impaled upon on a cross? And left to bleed to death for your amusement? You have never felt a single ounce of pain your whole life. Did you want to inject as much misery in our lives as you can just because you can?

I didn’t have to do this. I could have left. I could have fled. But no, I will no longer run ... It’s not for me. For my children, for my brothers and sisters that you f---, I did it for them.

8. It was his religion
I'm sorry guys, but I am going to have to say the R-word. This was his religion.

Apart from killing 33 people including himself, because he was angry, there was something else that made it worse. He had dreamed of doing something like this all along. It was a cause and purpose that he lived for, stood for, fought for, stood his ground for, died for. It was something he held in his heart years before the shooting -- something that was born in his teens. There was no girlfriend to grieve for; he was a patriot fighting for a noble cause. It was a truth that he believed in; it was his religion.

It actually sounds as if he's refering to himself as part of a collective when he says "Did you want to inject as much misery in our lives . . .?" Who is the "we"?

Some of this reminds me of the main character in Catcher in the Rye.

9. Conclusion
No, he wasn't the kind of guy I could have imagined on Monday. He sounds like some kind of freedom-fighter now.

It's not every day that we have teenagers, adolescents and young adults with a cynical view of the world. What do you expect? Twenty years of growing up, learning and experience and what do you expect people to come up with?

Who is there to answer the tough questions of life? What do we say when the world is a disappointment to people, when it appears to be so broken, corrupt and twisted? What do we do when we think that everyone else is blind and that we are the only ones who can see? The only one of "God's sacred children?"

[Tao_Equus]

No not a freedom fighter. A kid whos angst and dissapointment that life is hard and rarely fair developed into a consuming psychosis. There is no nobility in his thoughts or actions.

[Pathless]

Yet from his isolated, alienated perspective he may have very well seen himself as a "freedom fighter." This is not to condone any kind of killing, but to shift perspectives from one of pointing and judging a "psychopath" to some attempt to understand what may have been going on with this kid.

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by Pathless

Yet from his isolated, alienated perspective he may have very well seen himself as a "freedom fighter." This is not to condone any kind of killing, but to shift perspectives from one of pointing and judging a "psychopath" to some attempt to understand what may have been going on with this kid.

What he saw himself as was a part of his illness. And it is entirely fair and proper to judge him a psycopath and then attempt to understand why and see what lessons we can learn from it. He is beyond help now.

(sounds argumentative but I assure you it is not)

[wil]

Today's news. He was apprehended by campus police three times. In court the first judge said he was a danger to himself and others and recommended a psyche evaluation. The psyche evaluation and second judge decided he needed outpatient treatment and that he was a danger to himself...but did not indicate to others.

Despite his altercations with campus police previously his current roomate and teachers were not aware due to the fact that only the first judge and the police thought he was a danger to others but it wasn't the final court ruling...hence he could purchase weapons and not have a ding on the FBI check and the people around him were not notified due to privacy laws....

Let the lawyers begin...the college and the state now has a lot to lose...and Virginia taxpayers...will pay.

[Rouge47]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

No not a freedom fighter. A kid whos angst and dissapointment that life is hard and rarely fair developed into a consuming psychosis. There is no nobility in his thoughts or actions.

It has been said, "One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter." I'm not saying that this guy was a freedom fighter but I'm not sure if I would classify him as a terrorist either, for he had reason (according to what he believed to be a reason..that is).

Basically I'm just saying that I'm not taking a stance on any grounds. He WAS a bit crazy and he DID need more (a lot more) psychological help, BUT his life WAS filled with hate and pain from those who tortured him.

"Resolved: An oppressive government is better than no government."

Action is better than withdholding.

But, democracy is better than regime.

And finding help is better than going at things alone.

The poor guy chose the wrong path. Others had to suffer in his tide. If only he recieved more help from counselors, he probably wouldn't have tackled his issues in such a wrong fashion.

[Francis king]

i feel sorry for the kid, myself, and for all his victims... it stands out about the prof who had survived the holocaust and then sacrificed himself for the life of his students.. what a guy... a real hero...

one young man, goes over to a death camp, but something about him makes him strong, makes him survive, and he goes on to give his life to others... one young man, goes to university, but something makes him weak, causes him to kill, and he uses his life to end the lives of others...

...both just men...

...I would like to take this opportunity to remind ppl to try and be nice to each other... we all have in-groups, and we all can recognise the outsiders... maybe we should all, between us, try to ensure that the next time we seek to ostracise a person from becoming a member of the in-group we should turn things around, embrace the loners, smile at ppl, try to make them feel accepted...

..u see, being lonely and feeling small is something we all know... for ppl who spend a lot of time feeling small and unwanted there is only two ways to go... u accept ur lowly status, accept that nobody likes u, ur not cool or rich or clever enough, and they become even smaller, until u fade away into the background and nobody remembers u, or u go the other way, u cannot just fade away, make no fuss, u cannot accept the isolation and instead u want to make a big statement... u want to teach them that they cannot treat u like that... making "them" suffer makes u feel better, or so u think...

...university is just an extension of school, and the same social rules apply there as applied at school... most of u have probably experienced Freshers week, where ppl meet up and gangs start to form, and yet... there are always ppl on the periphery, the kids with glasses, the fat kids, the posh kids who dont do drugs, and many of these outsiders have a miserable time at uni socially... kids are cruel to each other without thinking...

...these events keep happenning, and every time they happen ppl like us post our comments online, we're all trying to justify events, make sense of what happens, but its simple, really...

...for a lot of ppl, the world is a harsh cruel place, we all have a hand in the creation of society, and society is not very civilised... large organisations such as universities do not have systems in place to prevent things like this happenning, most lecturers dont give a damn about individuals students welfare, and unless u actively ask for help u can wander around campus for three years with ur head in bits and nobody will know until u pull a gun on ur fellow students...

...we can try to apportion blame, blame the kid's background, blame his parents, blame the lecturers, blame the campus security services, but it's not gonna bring those kids back and it isnt going to stop this happenning again...

... we all need to make the effort to be more inclusive, and we need to stop being so mean and self centred, and look at other ppl as valued beings, not just figures of fun and oddball maniacs...

[Pathless]

Here's the kind of media response I've been looking for: a bit of critical thinking and analysis of the context of the situation, rather than the boo-hoo'ing, tragedy wallowing, and shocked faux-innocence stupidity radiating out from TV sets and USA Today.

Excerpt from
Virginia Tech: Is the Scene of the Crime the Cause of the Crime?
By Mark Ames, AlterNet. Posted April 20, 2007.

Schoolyard shootings are too shocking and subversive to forget. They remind us that we were just as miserable as kids as we are as adult workers. In fact, the similarities between the two, the continuity of misery and entrapment from school to office, become depressingly clear when you study the two settings in the context of these murders. Even physically, they look alike and warp the mind in similar ways: the overhead fluorescent lights, the economies-of-scale industrial carpeting and linoleum floors, the stench of cleaning chemicals in the restrooms, the same stalls with the same latches and the same metal toilet paper holders ... Then, after work or school, you go home to your suburb, where no one talks to each other and no one looks at each other, and where everyone, even the whitest-bread cul-de-sac neighbor is a suspected pedophile, making child leashes a requirement and high-tech security systems a given.

If you consider it this way, it means our entire lives, except perhaps college -- and Cho Seung-Hui reminds us that college can be hell for some people as well -- and that one summer backpacking around Europe are unbearably awful. As if our entire wretched script was designed for someone else's benefit. This is too much to handle. So the inescapable suspicion that suburban schools cause murder rampages is rejected with unrestrained hysteria -- and so it will be with college campuses in the public discussion about how to prevent more "Virginia Techs."

Blame is hurriedly focused on the murderer, rather than on the environment. A typical example is an op-ed piece written by Joanne Jacobs for the San Jose Mercury News, published exactly eight months after the Columbine massacre, in which she tried to reassure herself and her readers that, "Evil, not rage, drove these killers." I emphasize her quote because it's one of the most revealing yet widely held explanations among contemporary Americans.

When you use a word as inherently meaningless as "evil" to describe something as complex and resonant as Columbine or Virginia Tech, you are desperately trying to recover the amnesia that once protected you and told you how blissful and innocent your own school years were. The fact is that the schoolyard shooters were clear about their intentions: They wanted to "pry your eyes open." But sometimes we don't like what our eyes see; in fact, we refuse to believe what they see. You'd need to use "Clockwork Orange" eye-tweezers on someone like Joanne Jacobs to make her face this unpleasant fact. Blaming "evil" has worked wonders for President Bush in Iraq, and it's working wonders for Americans in understanding and stopping these massacres.

If you pull back and rethink how you view these rampage massacres -- if you can accept that the schools and offices are what provoke these massacres, just as poverty and racism create their own violent crimes, or slavery created slave violence and rebellions, then you have to accept that on some level the school and office shootings are logical outcomes and perhaps even justified responses to an intolerable condition that we can't yet put our fingers on.

Justified, that is, if you look at these crimes from a future historian's point of view. Imagine a historian 100 years from now, with no emotional investment in our contemporary culture, looking back on how we live today, and thinking to himself, "My god, how could those poor wretches cope with such hell?" It doesn't take a time machine to think this way. Unofficially, today a lot of people look at these murders as justified, as some kind of vindication. Sympathy is all over the Web. It's revealed in black humor, in "wage slave" T-shirts and in the success of movies like "Office Space" and "Fight Club." It's revealed anywhere it can safely be expressed.

[Tao_Equus]

A salient lucid peice of wrting that I can agrree with right up till the last paragraph.

Life is hell on earth for many, and a percentage feel this most keenly. But the majority do not. Most people are content being sheep, following the flock and being good obedient workers and consumers. You wont find them on these forums or any other discussing this subject though. They will sit not tuned into the news but re-runs of pathetic mind-numbing sugar sweet canned laughter and formulaic humour. Or undifferentiated 1 plot fits them all thrillers in which the good guys always win. Or... or... or...

The corporate owned media blast this young mans crazy ranting at you from every angle. Then abruptly withdraw it to let it fester in the fear centres of the sheeps brains. Another bit of the programing. Even the explosion of anger at our Orwellian society turned to its advantage.

Most people dont care to think. They want to live in their little bubbles. This event is unimportant. All it was a tragic loss of life. And it will change nothing.

[Pathless]

Wow, Tao! What a horribly cynical world view you express. One would almost infer that you don't want anything to change.

I agree with you that masses of people are dull, ignorant, and manipulated. Has this always been the case throughout history--the stunted and drowsy masses herded like cattle by the whims of those in power? Perhaps. Is history all there is? Perhaps not.

Granted, this event is just a re-run of the old inculcated programming, and is being handled in predictable ways. It certainly is serving a purpose of reinforcing a strong gridlock of fear, terror, and ignorance. And you are probably right in that it won't produce any positive changes. Indeed, such a mass generation of fear is a setback for those who hope to see more integral, peaceful, colorful, and complementary ways of living take root.

Yet hopelessness serves no positive purpose. And like viewing the many facets of a fractal, we clearly see that hopelessness turned to rage certainly only perpetuates problems. Because hopelessness serves no purpose, I do believe some people will come around and begin to grasp new ways of living and thinking.

There is an exponential roiling of consciousness in this ever more connected world. We are what we think and we are the emotions we entertain. The future belongs to those who can come together to cooperate and develop and apply creative solutions. One of the first steps in this process is turning off the stale re-runs and stopping the consumption of those mass-produced, stale emotions.

Can we do it? Dunno. I feel we have no choice but to be hopeful, though. Otherwise, we let the problems create our realities.

[Tao_Equus]

Hi Pathless,

I dont think I am cynical, and very much hope that I am not!!

But I refuse to justify under any circumstance or behind any excuse that violence of that nature can be acceptable.

My last post was a response to your previous one, and more exactly the last paragraph of what you pasted from Mark Ames. I feel what I wrote represents a truth, but not the only truth. And the fact that I am here participating in debate shows that I do have hope. There are a significant minority out there that refuse to be sheep. I flock to them

Regards

TE