'War, is it for Nation or for God?'

[Quahom1]

I digress, Juan.


v/r

Q

[juantoo3]

bump for exposure

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by juantoo3

bump for exposure

In light of the bump, let us consider what Saddam (pseudo said). "You dumb asses, you should have left well enough alone. I'd still be ruler of the country and there would be no terrorism "but what I decide", but no you've got to mess everything up..."

I opine that the difference between now and Saddam's rule is two fold.

1. Yep, we see death and destruction...before it was covered up.

2. People are finally beginning to step out of the shadows and take a stand (try that under Saddam's rule).

This war is for humanity. If we can't stop it (or end it now)...we're toast. Survival of the species comes to mind. China is just itching to get into the action. India is not cohesive enough yet. Pakistan is a renegade country (maybe America is too). Europe doesn't seem to know their butt from a hole in the ground (with exceptions). The UN is more concerned with small arms restrictions, than with countries building nukes...(go figure). Russia went from 1776 to the 1930s in Chicago, in less then five years. It has issues...

Canada has lost it (ain't the same country it was 30 years ago, and I can say that with conviction...I lived there, just about the time that "J'ai dû apprendre le français", had to learn it). New Zealand is lost as well (I suppose being out of harm's way makes one complacent), Australia seems to be keeping kipper, as does Great Britian.

Germany holds pace I think. France, hmmm I think quietly she does. Spain? No way.

Man, if we don't stand up now, we'll have nothing to stand up with, later.

my thoughts

v/r

Q

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Q!

Man, if we don't stand up now, we'll have nothing to stand up with, later.

Yep. That is the point and purpose of the warrior tradition. The best defense is a good offense. And then using that offense only when necessary.

[tommy]

Good Morning CR:

Thought I would throw my 2 cents in here. God has abundant power. Man chose to rule himself when he didn't listen to God's command.

One of the commands was, "thou shall not kill". Another command was to love your neighbor. Us imperfect humans will at times decide to make our own set of rules and somehow make them fit into bible principles.

In God's due time he will reveal himself again to due away with the magnitude that war causes and these pangs that men brought about will go away and we will live in peace as the earth was originally intented before we decided to make our own decisions free of God's commandments.

It's about love and God will take care of the rest. Peace, Tommy

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Tommy!

Since we are on a bit of a soul searching jag around here, I would like to comment briefly:

One of the commands was, "thou shall not kill".

Gotta love semantics...check out the Strong's:

from Exodus 20:13, the sixth commandment: 7523; ratsach, raw-tsakh; a prim. root; prop. to dash in pieces, i.e. kill (a human being), espec. to murder, -put to death, kill, (man-) slay (-er), murder (-er)

It is pretty apparent that the word has a rather strong connotation, not just "kill," but "murder." Not just kill, but kill a human. A little better interpretation of the passage, IMHO, is "Thou shalt do no murder."

Us imperfect humans will at times decide to make our own set of rules and somehow make them fit into bible principles.

Just as some of us who do not understand correctly will place themselves in judgement over others that have looked into the deeper meanings?

In God's due time he will reveal himself again to due away with the magnitude that war causes and these pangs that men brought about will go away and we will live in peace as the earth was originally intented before we decided to make our own decisions free of God's commandments.

Indeed, Matthew 24 is a rather revealing book to me. Especially verse 6, wherein Jesus speaks of "wars and rumors of wars," and to be not troubled by them, for the time is not yet... Isaiah is another great book concerning this, as is Ezekiel. But then, this is only this humble persons opinion.

It's about love and God will take care of the rest.

Yes, I agree.

Sometimes G-d uses the soldier to do what no one else has the gonads to do.

Just curious, should any Christian interfere with genocide, like Darfur, or the Serbian slaughter of the ethnic Croats and Muslims? Should Christians have come to the rescue of the Jews and Gypsies rotting in Hitler's death camps? Should Christians always stand idly by because "G-d will take care of the rest?" Oh yes, don't feed the poor in Africa, or give them AIDS drugs, because "G-d will take care of them."

Seems I remember a lesson Jesus taught, of a man who came to another in need. The man told the other to go away in peace, that he would pray for him. So the man in need went to another man, and that man gave the man what he needed, and a bit more as he was able. Which one did correctly by the man in need, the one who sent him away with a prayer, or the one who addressed the man's needs?

Which one was right, the one who said "G-d will take care of the rest," or the one who stepped up to the plate and did something about what was wrong?

[BlaznFattyz]

thou shall not kill is in the context of do not kill for revenge, or out of evil thoughts, or jealousy, or other negative reasons.

but to kill to ensure freedom of innocent people as in self defense, then that is justified by the desire to die for and protect those you love.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by BlaznFattyz

thou shall not kill is in the context of do not kill for revenge, or out of evil thoughts, or jealousy, or other negative reasons.

but to kill to ensure freedom of innocent people as in self defense, then that is justified by the desire to die for and protect those you love.

Yeah, that about somes it up. agreed.

v/r

Q

[juantoo3]

The Final Inspection


The soldier stood and faced God,
Which must always come to pass.
He hoped his shoes were shining,
Just as brightly as his brass.

"Step forward now, you soldier,
How shall I deal with you?
Have you always turned the other cheek?
To My Church have you been true?"

The soldier squared his shoulders and said,
"No, Lord, I guess I ain't.
Because those of us who carry guns,
Can't always be a saint.

I've had to work most Sundays,
And at times my talk was tough.
And sometimes I've been violent,
Because the world is awfully rough.

But, I never took a penny,
That wasn't mine to keep...
Though I worked a lot of overtime,
When the bills got just too steep.

And I never passed a cry for help,
Though at times I shook with fear.
And sometimes, God, forgive me,
I've wept unmanly tears.

I know I don't deserve a place,
Among the people here.
They never wanted me around,
Except to calm their fears.

If you've a place for me here, Lord,
It needn't be so grand.
I never expected or had too much,
But if you don't, I'll understand."

There was a silence all around the throne,
Where the saints had often trod.
As the soldier waited quietly,
For the judgment of his God.

"Step forward now, you soldier,
You've borne your burdens well.
Walk peacefully on Heaven's streets,
You've done your time in Hell."

[ Author Unknown -- from David Ballard, via Aiken Drum]

[tommy]

Hi:

God has wars because he has to fight off the evel one until he is driven out. His war will fulfill Bible prophecy and that is why I am neutral.

I can't picture in my mind Jesus loading a Canon to blow away another Christian who perhaps lives in another country where there is a war.

It's unfortunate that war is part of our lives. Jesus taught about the "good nes of the Kingdom". Doesn't that give us hope of a life where we don't have reason to kill our brothers, because we don't have to.

I look forward to the war of Armagedon when our King will win and there will be no more cause to fight because we won't need to defend ourselves because everyone will glow with love. Peace, tommy

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Tommy!

I look forward to the war of Armagedon when our King will win and there will be no more cause to fight because we won't need to defend ourselves because everyone will glow with love.

Yes, I agree. I look forward to the promise of Isaiah as well, the time when swords are beaten into plowshares, and spears are beaten into pruning hooks, and war is not learned anymore.

We have to get there first. In the meantime, we will go where the spirit leads us, and do the best we know how to do.

[inhumility]

Originally Posted by juantoo3

Kindest Regards, Tommy!
Yes, I agree. I look forward to the promise of Isaiah as well, the time when swords are beaten into plowshares, and spears are beaten into pruning hooks, and war is not learned anymore.
We have to get there first. In the meantime, we will go where the spirit leads us, and do the best we know how to do.

I am also for peace and dialogue,though we have been persecuted just for that,and I also have suffered a lot for that.
Thanks

[tommy]

Originally Posted by juantoo3

Kindest Regards, Tommy!


Yes, I agree. I look forward to the promise of Isaiah as well, the time when swords are beaten into plowshares, and spears are beaten into pruning hooks, and war is not learned anymore.

We have to get there first. In the meantime, we will go where the spirit leads us, and do the best we know how to do.

Kindest Regards to you too Juan. Or should I say to you too3 Juan.

I always get a kick out of reading your posts as you have a kind humble way about it.

However, I think it even goes a little deeper. Man is not capable of ruling himself. We can say, don't kill or don't steal because you will go to jail. But you won't see a sign on the freeway that says, "Love the other driver".

We can exist under Jesus' Kingdom following his Fathers rules that will benefit us. Think about my favorite part and many of yours in terms of the Gospel.

Jesus went to the root of the problems in his Sermon on the Mount in Matthew Chapter 5-7. He said (more or less) don't have passion for another man's wife as it is the same as committing adultry. Love your neighbor like you love yourself, where this principle goes to the root of hatred which in turn goes to the root of murder.

That is why I believe Jesus wants us to share the good news of the Kingdom because man has demonstrated that we are not capable of ruling and the only way this whole system is going to work is by living under his Fathers rules. Peace, tommy

[mee]

(Daniel 2:44) "And in the days of those kings (human rulership)the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms,(human goverments) and it itself will stand to times indefinite;................ at last peace with no more war, only Gods heavenly kingdom goverment will accomplish true peace. and the reason this will happen is because Jesus is the king of Gods heavenly goverment
(Isaiah 9:6) For there has been a child born to us, there has been a son given to us; and the princely rule will come to be upon his shoulder. And his name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of PEACE
(Isaiah 2:4) And he will certainly render judgment among the nations and set matters straight respecting many peoples. And they will have to beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning shears. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, neither will they learn war anymore.......... those who listen to Jesus do not learn war anymore

[cyberpi]

Originally Posted by Salim Syed

Apologies, will try and keep to the thread from now on...
First time on a forum, takes time to get used to the laws of the forum..
Please be patient with me...

Patience is the sacrifice of time or opportunity, for which the adherent of many religions should have. I remind myself of Qur'an 103 when I hear that word on a forum.

Who is a war for? Who is a war against? That would depend on the war. In case people forget, God (swt) the creator of this universe does not lack the power to do anything. God (swt) does not need a protector. Fighting for truth and justice seems to be claimed by each party in most conflicts. Christians and Muslims recognize that true justice comes on the last day before the judge that sees all and hears all, correct?

It sounds to me like the issue here is the "chain of command", where people place themselves in ranks. It is the organization of every military, police force, many civil services, many businesses, schools, governments, and even many families in the world. The chain of command is an organization that alledgedly commands authority, but not necessarily responsibility. The troubling questions are: Who is responsible for a subordinate's actions? Who chooses the rank, title, or responsibility? If a subordinate is ordered to do something they disagree with, are they responsible if they do it? Is it the person who gives the order that is responsible? If people vote for it are they responsible? If people voted against it are they still responsible? With a decision comes responsibility but following a decision is also a decision that bears responsibility. Imagine a parent that tells their underaged children to do something like drive a car to the market to get something, but which turns out to cause a tragic accident that harms their children and their neighbors. If the children don't know better are they still responsible? Imagine a parent who raises their children to worship wooden idols. Is the child responsible for worshipping the idol if they didn't know otherwise? All of these questions deal with the responsibility of making a decision, delivering information, and following others by placing faith in them.

It can be a pyramid scheme. Who put the man at the top as the Pharoah, the Lord, the master, boss, parent, teacher, judge, president, scholar, dictator, or caliph? Who placed him there? I believe with that placement comes responsibility. When we place faith in someone it is our decision to follow (or not) and with that decision comes responsibility. If you were born into a family that is not righteous by your beliefs then it is your struggle to obey or respect, and yet to disobey or disrespect when it counters your beliefs. Those are the tough decisions of how to struggle.

In some countries it is your choice to join the military whereas in others it is a requirement. However, in most every country there is no public vote taken of whether to go to war and there is no military vote of whether to follow every specific order. There is simply no public vote made. Serving a military is made out to be an all-or-nothing decision, which does seem wrong. The same can be said of a police organization. The police officers do not write the laws, but they are tasked with holding the people accountable to them. They are held accountable for acting or not acting per the law, regardless of the situation. If in your heart you feel that it is wrong to judge and condemn when you see another person oppressing or causing harm to another person, then neither the police nor the military is a place for you. Even if you are in neither organization, someday you might be faced with that decision of whether to help your neighbor by judging and condemning another, or to sit by and do nothing. For which action bears the greater responsibility is up to God (swt), the only true 'just judge' who sees all and hears all. Taking no action sometimes does not serve justice. As Jesus Christ (pbuh) said, law is a matter of justice, and mercy, and faith... summed up also as doing for your neighbor as you would have them do for you. Certainly there is the passage where Jesus (pbuh) says, he desires mercy, not justice. Also: judge not and you will not be judged, condemn not and you will not be condemned, but forgive and you will be forgiven. Powerful words.

The other issue is who writes the law? God (swt) has some laws and commandments. So if everyone followed those laws would there be a need for any military or law enforcement? Would there be any wars? Would there be a need for any police? I don't think so. Many laws and orders are written by religions, governments, and ordinary people whether they are elected, self-appointed, or as a simple agreement made between two people. Are they truly lawful? Are they righteous? Are they laws from God (swt) or are they derived from the logic of individuals who are subject to errors or selfish beliefs? You be the judge.

With the information age things are rightfully challenging social structures and will certainly cause further changes as people search for what is righteous. News, information, and conspiracy theories propagate faster than at any time before in history to rightfully shed some light on situations. It seems to me that people around the planet need have even more say in the laws that govern them, regardless of what nation they claim to live in or religion they claim to live by.