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06-24-2005, 04:50 PM
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#1 (permalink) |
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General Member
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Reno, Nevada
Posts: 127
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'War, is it for Nation or for God?'
OK, Constable, let me try a new picture here. Your out on the USS naval ship, outside of enemy waters. Tension is running high among the crew. Young private comes to the Constable and says, I was up late last night reading Revelations and I am concerned that we may be part of the beast, the wild beast, nations, political powers and what about God's new singular goverment in Heaven where we only have one goverment under God? How does the Constable provide comfort and direction to this young private?
Scenario II, Young private is becoming somewhat battle fatigued after 90 days off of enemy waters. He stairs up at the flag blowing in the wind. He then stairs off at the Holy land off in the distance and says to himself, I need to go talk to the Constable. He asks the Constable, what flag would have Jesus have flown if he was here? Would it be the Jewish, US, UK or perhaps a Muslim flag? Or, perhaps Jesus would not have flown a flag at all? have a great Friday, tommy |
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06-24-2005, 10:27 PM
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#2 (permalink) | |
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What was the question?
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Maryland
Posts: 9,060
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Re: Leaving the Catholic church
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That is the oath that every military man and woman takes when being sworn into the United States Military. It is not an oath to be taken lightly. Because it is an oath sworn before God, it is expected that God will honor and guide the solidier/sailor/airman in his/her endeavor to uphold that sacred oath. That said, I have had younger members approach with their misgivings based on conscientious objection, or religious concerns, about serving in military service. First of all I listen to everything my shipmate has to say. Most times, they will talk themselves into or out of the situation they perceive. They just want an ear and an understanding spirit, to their fears. Courage is not being fearless, courage is moving forward despite fear. Second of all, Jesus does not enable cowardice. In fact He is the epitimy of bravery. Jesus ordered us to "Render unto Ceasar what is Ceasar's and to God what is God's". He also said in all that we do, do for the glory of God. Whether ye be rich or poor, free or slave, (military or not), dedicate your day and your doings to God, and trust that God will guide you. Third, when we are at our most frightened, and weakest, if we trust in The Lord, that is when He can work His finest within us. Finally, I let the sailor know that I am sometimes frightened too, and there are times when things are beyond our control (the fouled anchor - a sailor's disgrace), but the job must still get done, and there is no one around but us...so it is up to us to trust in God, pull up our leggings and move forward. Everytime I took the helm of a ship, the Officer of the Deck and perhaps the Captain of the ship might be on the bridge with me...but Jesus' hand was always on my shoulder while I steered the ship's course...  You don't sound like you've ever served in the Military, but I may be wrong. However in the chance you haven't...here is something to ponder about the US military: The Code of Conduct I I am an American fighting man. I serve in the forces which guard my country and our way of life. I am prepared to give my life in their defense. II I will never surrender of my own free will. If in command I will never surrender my men while they still have the means to resist. III If I am captured I will continue to resist by all means available. I will make every effort to escape and aid others to escape. I will accept neither parole nor special favors from the enemy. IV If I become a prisoner of war, I will keep faith with my fellow prisoners. I will give no information or take part in any action which might be harmful to my comrades. If I am senior, I will take command. If not I will obey the lawful orders of those appointed over me and will back them up in every way. V When questioned, should I become a prisoner of war, I am required to give name, rank, service number, and date of birth. I will evade answering further questions to the utmost of my ability. I will make no written statements disloyal to my country and its allies or harmful to their cause. VI I will never forget that I am an American fighting man, responsible for my actions, and dedicated to the principles which made my country free. I will trust in my God and in the United States of America. my two cents. v/r Q |
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06-25-2005, 01:18 AM
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#3 (permalink) |
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Islamic Perspective
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: UK Slough
Posts: 45
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Re: Leaving the Catholic church
The heart never lies. whenever their is a discomfort of the heart, then you know what you are about to do is wrong, this is an innate way to know what sin is. True peace is achieved when the heart is no longer disturbed by the decision the intellect takes. Only decisions that adhere to God's pleasure and laws can keep the heart at peace.
When going to war one must know that it is justified by Gods laws. If not then the soldier will always carry guilt. For example if your country is invaded and you are being thrown out of your land , then if you have to fight to defend , there is no doubt that you have that right. Your heart will not be disturbed for defending your life. However if you fight a war becuase you have been told that you must obey orders then you can not be at peace, unless your heart is satisfied that you as a human being were justified in taking your opponents life. This justification can only be done when the laws of taking human life are laid out in detail by God. If you do not judge by God's law then how do you no your leader is justified in going to war. He may be an unjust leader, maybe fighting for wealth or power or domination (even if he chants the slogan of "GOD". If you are a soldier and you are tormented by your service then you know that what you have fought for is not just. Whether the whole country praises you or gives you medals is irrelevant. i read that the man who dropped the atom bomb on Japen was given a national hero's welcome. But he went into a mental hospital. This was becuase he knows that all the justification in the world by people, will never be able to put his heart at rest. He killed 100 ot 1000's of innocent people. I am sure he would have rather died than carry that guilt. Bye. |
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06-25-2005, 02:16 AM
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#4 (permalink) | |||||||
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What was the question?
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Maryland
Posts: 9,060
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Re: Leaving the Catholic church
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v/r Q |
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06-25-2005, 07:47 AM
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#5 (permalink) |
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General Member
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Reno, Nevada
Posts: 127
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Re: Leaving the Catholic church
This is a pretty interesting debate here covering a cross section of two different views real well. Constable, on the serious side I do want to send my sincere regards your way for putting your life in harms way defending our "nation" and the freedoms we enjoy here. My regards also to Salim for sharing his views in a very peaceful calming manner. I don't fully know my view about war and where the line is actually drawn between defending your county and when God actually wants us to fight a war for Him. I just doesn't seem like times are getting better. I want to add a little more under a new post that I will call: War, is it for nation or God? Peace and Love, tommy
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06-25-2005, 08:08 AM
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#6 (permalink) |
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General Member
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Reno, Nevada
Posts: 127
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War, is it for Nation or for God?
Sorry for such a heavy duty subject but wanted to interject some thoughts and perhaps gather more after reading the Constables and Salims posts (most had valid and somewhat opposing views that I found remarkable) on the post entitled "Leaving the Catholic Church".
In my opinion, these are the troubles plagued by mankind that will not be resolved until we have a Kingdom under one rule, the true God through Jesus in Heaven. If WWII was not ended would we be speaking German today and saluting an elder Hitler? My opinion is very mixed on war and I do think that is where the nations, political powers and organized religion went wrong. I hated the Vietnam war and loved all the music that came out of it including Dylan, Beatles and all the peace and love stuff of the '60s. OK, flower power didn't work, so what are we going to do about it? Think of this one. It is 1942 and a German soldier takes oath to God to fight for nation. Now, an American soldier in 1942 takes oath to God to fight nation too. They both take the oath to the true God following the same religion. 1943, they both kill each by the sword. Did both of these soldiers receive favor from God by killing each other or did they die for nation? Was WWII a war called by God? My Dad fought in WWII and I remember the happy scenes of the women kissing the soldiers at the end of the War and we did face the risk of our Country being taken over. Do we face these risks today? Yes, more then ever. Why? We have not learned the greatest command Jesus gave us and that is to love one another. Jesus also said "those who take the sword will perish by the sword" Matthew 26:52. Jesus foretold wars and what would ultimately happen. God strictly commanded Isreal that they were not to engage in wars of aggression or conquest beyond the territory he granted to them and they were not to fight any nations other the ones He ordered them to fight. They were not to engage in strife with the nations of Edom, Moab, or Ammon (De 2:4, 5, 9, 19). So this gives it an interesting twist when it can be interpreted by these versus, unless God calls the war??? The poor Isrialites, always moving out, Egypt, stuck in the desert for 40 years since they could not fully obey God and today the situation of having to move again, Gaza Strip. So let me ask the question, when we enter war are we doing it for God or nation? God is a manly person of war, the God of armies and mighty in battle. Ex 15:3, 2Sa 5:10 Ps 24:8, 10. After Satan was hurled to the earth, he made God's servants on earth, the remaining ones of the "seed of women", who observed the commandments of God and have the work of bearing witness to Jesus. his chief target Rev 12:13. Perhaps war has been so bad over the last 100 years because Satan has been hurled out of Heaven. Here's Jesus talking in Revelation, "Woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil has come down to you, having a great anger, knowing he has only a short period of time Rev 12:10, 12. But has war over the years ultimately solved the problems or made them worse? Look at how my billions of dollars have been spent on building horrible weapons that it is said we, the nations(s) never intent to use. I even heard on the news there is a Nuclear Weapon missing in the former Soviet Union. Image that, missing, sort of like, I lost my keys, hmm... where did they go? Is long term war helping us or hurting and do you feel like we are entering into more peaceful times? Wasn't the first commandent from Moses, "Thou shall not kill"? Exodus 20. Remember what Jesus said and maybe all this stuff has to happen "You are going to hear of wars and reports of wars: see that you are not terrified. For these things must take place, but the end is not yet. For nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom Matthew 24:6,7, Luke 21 9:10. Peace and Love to all, tommy Last edited by tommy; 06-25-2005 at 08:12 AM. Reason: spelling |
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06-25-2005, 09:08 AM
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#7 (permalink) |
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Islamic Perspective
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: UK Slough
Posts: 45
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Re: Leaving the Catholic church
The heart is full of deceipt.
Yes it is full of deceipt unless purified by taken actions against the 'diseases of the heart'. Does not negate the fact that the heart feels discomfort at wrong action... We choose to obey orders God gave man freewill, but we are held accountable for our choice and intentions... every man knows his intention and God also knows the deep secrets in our hearts... outward action only fools humans... In America, we can call an errant leader, home... An errant leader is an errant leader, the just do not defend the wrong even if it's their own brother, sister or themselves. Justice is applying laws accross the table equally, not one law for your friends and another for anyone different.. We are not tormented by our service... I am sure there are many who are and are not. Those who are not are either pure in their intentions and stayed within the limits of the rules of engagement, those who are tormented did not have good intentions or did not believe in the cause or transgressed the limits set by God... You read wrong. The LT Colonel was quite fine in his thinking. He just saved a million more lives from being wasted. The war would have lasted for another year or two, resulting in the damn near extinction of the Japanese people. Not to mention another 200,000 US casualties. His remorse was in the loss of 140,000 lives needlessly because the Japanese government would not give in, and the people followed their emperor. He did not go insane. The Japanese people did, until we dropped a bomb even bigger than their pride could handle. In Islam the end does not justify the means. If killing innocent women and children and non-combantent men is a sin , then killing 100's of thousands to stop the war is not right. A good end can not be justified by an evil act. "It is better to be oppressed that be an oppressor" (principle not aimed the US). To say that the Japs are responsible because they did not give in, is an unbelievable statement ! No they did not invent the atom bomb, No they did not drop it... Any war that threatens the 'extinction' of a people must be a brutal unjust war, because a war fought within the limits of God's law will only result in the destruction of the army. No transgression can be done against women, children and non-combatents or animals or vegetation or buildings and infrastruture. If no surrender of an army means 'extinction' of a nation , then it means the war is not being fought only against the soldiers, because soldiers only make up a small proportion of the population. 'extinction' means 'if we can not overcome the enemies army, then we will destroy your country - vegetation (chemical weapons), children, buildings, animals, water supplies etc...' this is terrorism at a national level... Remember terrorism is causing terror in populations that are not armed to defend, whether it's against one man by one man, or a nation against nation, legitimizing terrorism will never change it's nature, it will always be 'terrorising innocent people'.... like Sept 11 , it was terrorism and totally unjustified... |
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06-25-2005, 09:52 AM
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#8 (permalink) |
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Islamic Perspective
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: UK Slough
Posts: 45
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Re: War, is it for Nation or for God?
Heavy subject, but what is more important in this time that God has created us ? The last century was the bloodiest one for mankind , I think the world wars took the lives of nearly 90 million people !
First of all I would like to list the rules of war in Islam (with my low level of knowledge...) Taken from another article I read on Islam... ------------------------------------- start of article Fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for God loveth not transgressors. - Quran 2:190 But just what are these limits? Chapter four of the book Human Rights in Islam by 'Allamah Abu al-'A'la Mawdudi is entitled The Rights of Enemies at War. The author states: Islam has first drawn a clear line of distinction between the combatants and the non-combatants of the enemy country. As far as the non-combatant population is concerned such as women, children, the old and the infirm, etc., the instructions of the Prophet are as follows: "Do not kill any old person, any child or any woman" (Abu Dawud). "Do not kill the monks in monasteries" or "Do not kill the people who are sitting in places of worship" (Musnad of Ibn Hanbal). During a war, the Prophet saw the corpse of a woman lying on the ground and observed: "She was not fighting. How then she came to be killed?" From this statement of the Prophet the exegetists and jurists have drawn the principle that those who are non-combatants should not be killed during or after the war. The Prophet also prohibited the killing of anyone who is tied or is in captivity. Do not transgress limits! These points are reinforced by other sayings of Prophet Mohammed collected in The Book of Jihad and Expedition (Kitab Al-Jihad wa'l-Siyar) It has been narrated on the authority of Abu Huraira that the Messenger of God said: Do not desire an encounter with the enemy; but when you encounter them, be firm. - Muslim Book 019, Number 4313 It is narrated on the authority of 'Abdullah that a woman was found killed in one of the battles fought by the Messenger of God . He disapproved of the killing of women and children. - Muslim Book 019, Number 4319 It is narrated by Ibn 'Umar that a woman was found killed in one of these battles; so the Messenger of God forbade the killing of women and children. - Muslim Book 019, Number 4320 Abu Bakr , the first caliph or successor to Prophet Mohammed established a detailed set of rules for Islamic conduct in war. He gave these instructions to an Islamic army setting out for Syria, then still part of the Byzantine Empire: "Stop, O people, that I may give you ten rules for your guidance in the battlefield. Do not commit treachery or deviate from the right path. You must not mutilate dead bodies. Neither kill a child, nor a woman, nor an aged man. Bring no harm to the trees, nor burn them with fire, especially those which are fruitful. Slay not any of the enemy's flock, save for your food. You are likely to pass by people who have devoted their lives to monastic services; leave them alone" ------------------------------- End of article So these are the limits set by God. No justification can be used to transgress these limit, either my Muslims or others. For instance as someone said in the other forum, the atom bomb dropped on Japan stopped the war and hence saved another million lives... His statment is very dangerous ! first of all he is not God. Only God knows the future. Any nation on earth can use the same theory - 'if we decimate all others they will be terrified and never stand up to us' This is terrorism - putting terror into the hearts of innocent people in order to turn a battle which you are losing around. You cannot break the limits set by God, full stop. If it means you will be defeated then so be it ! it is better to die being oppressed than becoming an oppressor. Also what does it mean to fight for your nation ? Yes if someone is invading you land or forcing you into starvation or taking away your right to follow your faith, then I would say it's a justification to fight until your homes are secure or your rights restored. Weapons such as atom bombs, nuclear bomb, chemical weapons, naypalm are satanic weapons. Becuase these by their design are weapons of terror, they can not be targeted only to soldiers. What was left behind in vietnam is Satanic ! even today women are having deformed children ! what did these children do wrong ? ......... I don;t want to get political.... but stay on religious principle, so I won't go into stories of engineered wars , but it is sad to see Millions dying, going to war because of nationalism and patriotism... What is great about a nation ? it is only the a boundary of land, with people who eat different food and dress differently and talk a different language. If every person was taught what is a just war and what is not a just war , and stick to it , then these tyrant leaders would not be able to manipulate millions of people to kill each other for slogans. Our people are great, Our nations is great ... No ! only God is great and we are all his servants. The greatest position a human can reach is servanthood to God. "to kill one human being (unjustly) is like killing the whole of mankind" There is nothing more valuable in this universe than life. All wars fought outside of self defense, is for other intentions... nothing can justify them.... Until every human being looks to every other human as his brother, there will not be peace... Would anyone drop an atom bomb on his own family ? The acid test is turn the situation around and then see if you feel it is just. If the Japs dropped an atom bomb on NYC and the Americans surrendered, would you say that it was a good thing because millions more would have died, or the American would have become extinct...? Your heart can not lie ! May God forgive us.... Amen |
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06-25-2005, 03:51 PM
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#9 (permalink) |
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General Member
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Reno, Nevada
Posts: 127
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Re: War, is it for Nation or for God?
Hi Salim: Even though we have many differing views, I think you have set a record for the most posts in two days, 25! In America we would would say that you are an Energy Bunny
 .The one point that I would differ on that I know is a big one is that Jesus was more then a Prophet, as I even read in one of your posts an acknowlegement that he ascended into Heaven, something greater then a Prophet has the ability to do. tommy |
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06-25-2005, 04:59 PM
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#10 (permalink) | |
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What was the question?
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Maryland
Posts: 9,060
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Re: Leaving the Catholic church
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If Tommy makes a new thread titled "War" I would like to take these last few posts of ours and put them in that thread, because it appears we have diverted from the original thought of this particular thread. Then we can continue to share our philosopies. Do you agree? v/r Q |
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06-25-2005, 05:12 PM
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#11 (permalink) |
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Islamic Perspective
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: UK Slough
Posts: 45
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Re: War, is it for Nation or for God?
I think it's just an initial burst will probably wane soon...
Don't really want to go into a discussion about whether Jesus is a Prophet or God or Son of God. It it debated all the time and I think Christians get tired of Muslims hitting on this point.. I do think however there is a huge Christian population who do not know how much text Islam has about Jesus, and how close Muslims are to Christians in faith... I find most non-Muslims in the UK are quite surprised that Muslims believe in Jesus. ... |
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06-25-2005, 05:33 PM
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#13 (permalink) | |
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What was the question?
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Maryland
Posts: 9,060
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Re: Temp
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 v/r Q |
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06-25-2005, 06:45 PM
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#14 (permalink) | |||||||||
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What was the question?
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Maryland
Posts: 9,060
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Re: War, is it for Nation or for God?
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By the way, the vote to make English or Dutch German the national language of the United States occured in 1789. English beat German by only one vote. Quote:
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Is war murder? I don't know. If the enemy was pointing rifles at your family, and your nation's soldiers shot them from behind, thus saving your family, what would you say? "you should not have shot them?" Or, thank God you saved me and mine's lives? Can't have it both ways. v/r Q |
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06-25-2005, 11:45 PM
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#15 (permalink) |
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Interfaith Forums
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 6,363
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Re: 'War, is it for Nation or for God?'
war is it for nation or God ?I suppose it depends on whether a person is in Gods army or the worlds army ,if a person is part of Gods army he would be listening for instructions from God,such asthe following.
In answer he said: "‘You must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole strength and with your whole mind,’ and, ‘your neighbor as yourself.(luke 10;27)..... I have fought the fine fight, I have run the course to the finish, I have observed the faith(2 timothy 4;7) (1 Thessalonians 5:8) But as for us who belong to the day, let us keep our senses and have on the breastplate of faith and love and as a helmet the hope of salvation; Stand firm, therefore, with YOUR loins girded about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness(Ephesians 6;14) Above all things, take up the large shield of faith, with which YOU will be able to quench all the wicked one’s burning missiles(Ephesians 6;16) Also, accept the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the spirit, that is, God’s word(Ephesians 6;17) As a fine soldier of Christ Jesus take your part in suffering evil(2 timothy 2;3) And he will certainly render judgment among the nations and set matters straight respecting many peoples. And they will have to beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning shears. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, neither will they learn war anymore(isaiah 2;4) (Micah 4:3) And he will certainly render judgment among many peoples, and set matters straight respecting mighty nations far away. And they will have to beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning shears. They will not lift up sword, nation against nation, neither will they learn war anymore. (Matthew 5:44) However, I say to YOU: Continue to love YOUR enemies and to pray for those persecuting YOU; (Matthew 26:52) Then Jesus said to him: "Return your sword to its place, for all those who take the sword will perish by the sword. For the weapons of our warfare are not fleshly, but powerful by God for overturning strongly entrenched things(2 corinthians 10;4) because we have a wrestling, not against blood and flesh, but against the governments, against the authorities, against the world rulers of this darkness, against the wicked spirit forces in the heavenly places(Ephesians 6;12) so its spiritual warfare for followers of Gods word the bible .to be involved in litaral warfare would not be Good And when YOU spread out YOUR palms, I hide my eyes from YOU. Even though YOU make many prayers, I am not listening; with bloodshed YOUR very hands have become filled(Isaiah 1;15) (Proverbs 28:9) He that is turning his ear away from hearing the law—even his prayer is something detestable. (Isaiah 59:2) No, but the very errors of YOU people have become the things causing division between YOU and YOUR God, and YOUR own sins have caused the concealing of [his] face from YOU to keep from hearing. (Lamentations 3:44) You have blocked approach to yourself with a cloud mass, that prayer may not pass through. (Micah 3:4) At that time they will call to Jehovah for aid, but he will not answer them. And he will conceal his face from them in that time, according as they committed badness in their dealings. |
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