Was Abraham insane?

[Postmaster]

What does that tell us about the couple of billion people that accpet it as truth?

[Saltmeister]

Originally Posted by I, Brian

I'm sure a few thousand years from now, people will look back on us and think we were insane for a number of reasons, not least continued destruction of our planet's natural habitats and resources.

lol.....and with better science and technology, it could be argued that such desecration of natural life and resources would not have been necessary.

[Muslimwoman]

Would we be having this discussion if G-d had tested Abraham (pbuh) by saying "go on steal that garden rake"? Perhaps then Abraham would be a name we did not know and child sacrifice was still the norm? Only a thought.

Salaam

[ardenz]

Originally Posted by Saltmeister

lol.....and with better science and technology, it could be argued that such desecration of natural life and resources would not have been necessary.

But its our reptillian mind which wants more more more ...for me me me ... even though we should know better

[bananabrain]

well, everyone's entitled to their own opinions i dare say, although frankly almost nothing in any sacred text (certainly not in the Tanakh) would stand up as far as a) political correctness or b) health and safety regulations are concerned. more to the point, i don't see why either of those things get to sit in judgement on a culture that has lasted for centuries. you don't get me having a go at "modern secular culture" because of gonzo porn or reality TV or identity fraud or climate change or any one of those myriad things that judaism declared immoral and evil, in defiance of its contemporary environment and millennia before people even started using the word "inappropriate". personally, i find this kind of "have you quit beating your wife?" approach both hostile and ignorant.

b'shalom

bananabrain

[post-abrahamic]

spoken like a true believer defending the faith. But, bb, when do we get to criticize the Abrahamic religions, then? Never? We should just count our blessings from God to have Jews fighting Muslims, Muslims fighting Christians, Christians fighting Muslims, this is what we must accept without question?

I don't think so..

[Saltmeister]

Originally Posted by post-abrahamic

spoken like a true believer defending the faith. But, bb, when do we get to criticize the Abrahamic religions, then? Never? We should just count our blessings from God to have Jews fighting Muslims, Muslims fighting Christians, Christians fighting Muslims, this is what we must accept without question?

I don't think so..

Criticising the faith? Criticise at will. I don't really mind. It must be interesting to know why people choose to uphold certain beliefs. I invite you to learn and find out why......and it's not as simple as just defending the castle and fighting for one's country. It's a matter of identity. We belong to something. We treasure it. We belong to different things, but there's common ground, which is why we're here.

Defending the faith? We must sound like a bunch of paranoid, cynical pessimists with a persecution complex so big we don't even know when to start discussing our differences. I aspire to convince you otherwise!!!

Are we at war? Actually things are quite cordial here in the Abrahamic forum. Not much fighting. More like a common social club......

As war as "defending the faith" is concerned, it's not really defence. It's just a matter of explaining what it all means to us......just giving our unique perspective. Sounds like we're combating some adversary......and yes, the comments of some posters here may be provocative, but it's just sarcasm. Don't take it too hard......or personal.......

You don't expect us to bore you here by agreeing and not disagreeing with you, eh? The world would be pretty boring if we all thought the same.

We're here to entertain........ I hope you're amused. Enjoy the experience.

[Francis king]

yeah, okay, my previous post was flippant yet...

personally, I find it difficult to accept that a) any kind of God worth worshipping would test a man this way, and take things so far he would expect a man to choose such a miserable God over his own son,
and b) that we are so quick to hold up these "examples of great faith" when today, in our time, we would view such behaviours as symptoms of some kind of psychotic disorder...

if God said to me- kill some children, I would tell him to go to hell, and if there really was no choice but to kill a child I would kill myself first, as a great act of defiance...

I would be far more likely to admire Abraham here if he had refused... if he had been tortured like a martyr, or dragged into hell by winged demons to suffer a millenia of misery, I'd pray for him- yet we uphold this gesture of his as something saintly...

what gives? You would kill your children for God if he asked? u wish u had that much faith that u could...? that's disturbing....

as for suggesting that we must view abraham in his rightful context and bear in mind that child killing was okay way back in the day I think we should remind ourselves that in cultures where ritual human sacrifice took place it was never fathers killing their own children, just like that... there was ceremony, process, ritual, and usually children were the last to be killed, as the goddess wanted- not women and children, but strong or handsome adult men, usually... there has been very little child sacrifice over the years, and it is only in rare cases does this happen and it is usually for the sake of the individual doing the killing, (the souls of children are considered pure, to these types, and they use the killing to increase their own power or longevity) not for the greater good of the community, which was the reason for the practise way back in the day...

what if the story was written as... abraham has sat up praying to ten days and nights. He's been fasting too. And praying. And currently he's a little unhinged. He tells his wife that he'd heard God tell him to kill his son, and he goes out to do it... within twenty minutes all the neighbours know, and are hanging round the garden, watching. He has to go through with it now...

but, da dah! God booms- what u doing, soft lad! put down that big knife!

lol

[post-abrahamic]

Only the Gnostics had the guts to go against Yahweh. There's a movie one can rent called "The Rapture" with Mimi Rogers and David Duchuvny..whatever starring in it. The movie shows the Abrahamic madness in modern light as it also shows the Gnostic position refusing to obey a sick and twisted God no matter what.

[paul]

But there's a little something more in this story than Abraham being told to kill his son.

Abraham had already been told by God his son would have children.
He knew his son would live to have children, this was promised by God.

His faith was not in being willing to kill his son at God's command.
But in his belief that he would rise again or maybe not die.

In this story it is not that a voice in his head told him, it was God who had already performed a miraculous promise with the birth of this son Isaac.

It's hard for us to imagine, God talking with us in such a way, completeing such a miraculous promise in our lives.
Promising us our son will have children, and then asking us to sacrifice our son.
Abraham had nothing to fear of losing his son, that would be a lack of faith, his faith was he beleived he wouldn't lose his son.

He did show complete devotion in giving more than his own self but his beloved child.
For he put not the faith of his own life, but that of his beloved son.

And not in that he would die, but that he would live.

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by Saltmeister

Defending the faith? We must sound like a bunch of paranoid, cynical pessimists with a persecution complex so big we don't even know when to start discussing our differences. I aspire to convince you otherwise!!!

Hi Saltmeister, I am here to help you defend the faith (not sure which one but for the sake of argument (or war) any one will do for now). So about .......did you hear that, they are coming to get me, no really they are.....aaarrrrrrgggggh

Sorry couldn't resist . The Abrahmic faiths - wow look at that, all our faiths are built upon the original scriptures given to the Jews, so the story of Abraham is important to us all.

Paul excellent job of explaining. Simple and straight to the point - wish I could do that.

IMHO one of the problems is that people try to read scriptures as you would a novel, it simply doesn't work that way.

[Saltmeister]

Originally Posted by ardenz

But its our reptillian mind which wants more more more ...for me me me ... even though we should know better

What do we think we're doing? The world's running out of oil and we hop on aeroplanes to go on these overseas holidays just to see the world, as opposed to just visiting one's family and friends. The overseas, non-family reunion holiday is starting to get a bit over-rated nowadays.

And then, back at home. The cars!!!! Arrrgggghhhhh. Build more railway tracks!!! More buses. Go completely public transport. Have a computerised car pooling service. More taxis. Less personally owned cars. Organise to have yourself transported to a destination of your choice.

Railways might be best. Have tracks going diagonally as well as horizontally (longitudinally) and vertically (latitudinally). How about digging a massive undersea trans-ocean transport system that is not hindered by ship-water-drag dynamics? An undersea railway? Could we build a massive bridge that stretches across oceans?

Hey.....the world is running out of oil. What else could we do to maintain rapid long-distance transport? Ships are slow. Should we build more hydrofoils?

Another possibility is to build lots of blimps.

[post-abrahamic]

Abraham's insanity skates again..

Guess I'll go renew my membership in BPOE, Blimps for Peace On Earth. You can't fly blimps with people in them over war zones so the more blimps in the air, the less war.

Oh, and Saltmeister? You know about the solar blimps? Made with transparent plastic skin and black solar panel flooring--the sunshine makes the trapped air heat up and lift the blimp while the solar panels supply electricity to the electric motors to propel the airship.

[bananabrain]

Originally Posted by post-abrahamic

spoken like a true believer defending the faith.

Only the Gnostics had the guts to go against Yahweh.

look, mate, there are two possibilities here:

1. you are genuinely interested in dialogue and open to learning
2. you are just here to tell everyone how evil the "abrahamic religions" are (viz your comment about a "sick and twisted god" and "madness") and how much cleverer the gnostics are.

if it's 1. then i am sure we'll get on once we've got past the initial prickliness.

if it's 2. then frankly you're no different from someone who turns up here to tell me i'm going to hell because i'm not a christian, or a muslim, or that you are a new prophet and we should all believe in you instead, or that all religion is stupid and anyone who believes in a "sky pixie" is a deluded moron.

all i am saying is that people who come to criticise are not the same as people who come to genuinely learn and find stuff out. people who arrive with fixed ideas and closed minds and an agenda to bash one religion or group of religions are a) boring and b) completely missing the point of the site. now i appreciate that you find the aqedah a challenging text, but there is a difference between saying:

1. this is a tough text, i don't understand it, how do other people understand it, does it mean X or Y or what?

and saying:

2. see this text? the guy in it is a nutter, a sadistic psycho child abuser and his god is a maniac and we should all see that as a pattern.

one is an open question and the other is a statement which is designed as an attack. you must understand, however, that dialogue is not facilitated by rhetorical questions, but by genuine, open-minded enquiry. put it this way, i already know what you think, so what point is there for me to talk to you if you're not prepared to actually engage with other peoples' points of view?

Originally Posted by Francis king

personally, I find it difficult to accept that a) any kind of God worth worshipping would test a man this way, and take things so far he would expect a man to choose such a miserable God over his own son,

but what i am saying is that at the time this wouldn't have been an unusual thing to ask, rather it would have been the norm and actually, the radical thing is to say "you know, i'm not going to actually have you kill your son like you expect - religion's not going to be about that any more".

and b) that we are so quick to hold up these "examples of great faith" when today, in our time, we would view such behaviours as symptoms of some kind of psychotic disorder...

i agree - that's kind of the point, that these texts are not meant to be verbatim psychological case histories of literal, linear events, but pieces of sacred history. by the same token, a couple of hundred years ago you might have really admired a man who went out and claimed new land for his country, or who killed hordes of enemies in battle, whereas nowadays both of these behaviours are rightly regarded as reprehensible. it is perfectly fine for G!D to ask something like this in a sacred text (and always has been) but it is not alright for a man to take it upon himself to do something like this because he hears voices. the two cases are not comparable and any similarity is solely based upon the most superficial and tendentious comparisons. it would be like comparing the book of joshua to lord of the rings - the fact that both are books describe righteous wars and include acts of treachery does not mean we can compare the protagonists or the issues described.

by the same token, even abraham himself argued with G!D in trying to get sodom and gomorrah off the hook and later biblical figures commonly tried to avoid their fate or challenge the Divine Will. in fact, the sages of the talmud at least once told G!D to sod off and let them make up their own minds. (BT bava metzia 59b) the question that i would ask is, what is it about the aqedah that makes it possible for someone to agree to it? under what circumstances would someone not only go along with it, but rejoice in doing so? what, therefore, is the Text trying to teach us? to simply dismiss it as a barbaric act of cruelty is to resolutely refuse to delve beyond the superficial.

b'shalom

bananabrain

[Caimanson]

Originally Posted by paul

It's hard for us to imagine, God talking with us in such a way, completeing such a miraculous promise in our lives.
Promising us our son will have children, and then asking us to sacrifice our son.
Abraham had nothing to fear of losing his son, that would be a lack of faith, his faith was he beleived he wouldn't lose his son.

He did show complete devotion in giving more than his own self but his beloved child.
For he put not the faith of his own life, but that of his beloved son.

And not in that he would die, but that he would live.

That reminds that there is a very thin line between genuine faith and self deception. Think of those religious fanatics that refused medical treatment for their children believing that god would heal. Those children are now dead.

Fair enough if abraham wasn't crazy. Still makes me fear how these kind of stories are potentially interpreted, so that religious devotion is put before common sense and respect for human beings.