Was Jesus being mean when he said:

[Conscience]

Well the angels are called "sons and daughters of God."

Certinly, they are known as Beni Elohim, or sons of God in Hebrew." But, read the book of Hebrews where it talks about the Son of God, i.e., the manifestion of God in human flesh. It says that Jesus, who is the Son of God, is higher than the angels. It calls Jesus the "Son" and not the "son." There's a difference.

Jesus never said he was God, he said he was his Son. In fact, he even rebuked those that tried to equate him with his Father! He prayed and worshiped His Father in Heaven, and the Father even opens the Heavens and says "This is my beloved Son, whom I am well pleased." We could say right there that is proof Jesus and his Father are separate.

In John 58:8, Jesus says "Before Abraham was I am." Notice when he said "I am" he made himself to be the Same I am that spoke with Moses. Also notice, that the Jews that he spoke with, understood EXACTLY what he was saying. They tried to kill him for it. One other thing. Notice Jesus didnt say "Before Abraham was, I 'was.'" Certianly, that could be taken to mean that he is an angel, which was created before man. But no, the Lord said "I am." He was saying that he is Eternal - without begining or end!

[Marcion]

heh, well according to a verse in the pseudo-pauline Timothy, now this couldnt be coming from Paul but whoever wrote that letter tells us that we can all re-write scripture to suit our needs lol. The Bible is filled with alterations, quotations, editing and foreign stories from various world mythology. And of course the Judaizers like James and Peter would portray Christ as equal to God in some form of Godhead to explain to the masses, that was their motive from the beginning.

Ok so my beliefs are extremely unorthadox lol, you have your way and I have mine in Christ Jesus, at least there's that much, not trying to get after you or anything it's just my personal path in Christ.

[Conscience]

I get what your saying. Dont feel to bad though, MOST people here dont agree with my beliefs. One other thing. Can you please show me where the Bible says we can "re-write" scripture?

Thanks!

[Marcion]

I forgot to mention the Bible isn't exactly meant for my beliefs anyway, it was compiled and published for orthadox christians, not for dualists or gnostic christians, so I can't really back my statements very well based on the Bible alone, though I try to point out things that seem unorthadox and should be looked into further by us all. And you wouldn't consider apocrypha as also being sacred texts, so I guess you win the arguement based on what it says in the Bible.

[Marcion]

unless I'm not looking at it correctly, it appears Paul is saying we can correct and reproof scriptural writings for instructing others:

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness"
2 Timothy 3:16

[Conscience]

Paul was saying that the scripture was given to us by inspiration of God - it is "God breathed" onto the men that wrote as the Holy Spirt moved on them. Pual was saying we should use it for correction, profitable doctrine, reproof, correction, and for instruction of righteousness.

[mee]

Originally Posted by Marcion

Yes it's very possible they are the same. Some apocrypha texts give Jesus and Michael two separate characters, though both Michael and Jesus are angels/sons of God. It's also kinda sketchy in our own modern bibles today, but if I had to choose one of the angels of God, the most likely candidate would be Michael imo. He was the one who led God's angels against Satan's during the Rebellion. I'm not a JW, but I definately agree with more of their beliefs than most other Christian denominations. I don't worship any kind of images either, not even the cross. I don't think it's right to portray jesus suffering, I'd much rather remember the life he lived for us

hi, i thought this was interesting , it is thoughts on jesus and micheal from a jehovahs witness magazine.

The

Bible’s Viewpoint

Who

Is Michael the Archangel?

ACCORDING to the Bible, there are millions of angelic creatures inhabiting the spirit realm. (Daniel 7:9, 10; Revelation 5:11) From beginning to end, the Scriptures make hundreds of references to the angels that remain loyal to God. Yet, only two of these spirit creatures are mentioned by name. One is the angel Gabriel, who personally delivered messages from God to three different individuals over a period of some 600 years. (Daniel 9:20-22; Luke 1:8-19, 26-28) The other angel mentioned by name in the Bible is Michael.

Michael is clearly an outstanding angel. For example, in the book of Daniel, Michael is described as fighting wicked demons in behalf of Jehovah’s people. (Daniel 10:13; 12:1) In the inspired letter of Jude, Michael confronts Satan in a dispute over Moses’ body. (Jude 9) The book of Revelation shows that Michael wars with Satan and his demons and hurls them out of heaven. (Revelation 12:7-9) No other angel is portrayed as having such great power and authority over God’s enemies. It is no wonder, then, that the Bible appropriately refers to Michael as "the archangel," the prefix "arch" meaning "chief," or "principal."

The

Controversy Over Michael’s Identity

Christendom’s religions, as well as Judaism and Islam, have conflicting ideas on the subject of angels. Some explanations are vague. For instance, The Anchor Bible Dictionary states: "There may be a single superior angel and/or a small group of archangels (usually four or seven)." According to The Imperial Bible-Dictionary, Michael is the "name of a superhuman being, in regard to whom there have in general been two rival opinions, either that he is the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, or that he is one of the so-called seven archangels."

In Jewish tradition these seven archangels are Gabriel, Jeremiel, Michael, Raguel, Raphael, Sariel, and Uriel. On the other hand, Islam believes in four archangels, namely, Jibril, Mikal, Izrail, and Israfil. Catholicism also believes in four archangels: Michael, Gabriel, Raphael, and Uriel. What does the Bible say? Are there several archangels?

The

Bible’s Answer

Aside from Michael, no archangel is mentioned in the Bible, nor do the Scriptures use the term "archangel" in the plural. The Bible describes Michael as the archangel, implying that he alone bears that designation. Hence, it is reasonable to conclude that Jehovah God has delegated to one, and only one, of his heavenly creatures full authority over all other angels.

Aside from the Creator himself, only one faithful person is spoken of as having angels under subjection—namely, Jesus Christ. (Matthew 13:41; 16:27; 24:31) The apostle Paul made specific mention of "the Lord Jesus" and "his powerful angels." (2 Thessalonians 1:7) And Peter described the resurrected Jesus by saying: "He is at God’s right hand, for he went his way to heaven; and angels and authorities and powers were made subject to him."—1 Peter 3:22.

While there is no statement in the Bible that categorically identifies Michael the archangel as Jesus, there is one scripture that links Jesus with the office of archangel. In his letter to the Thessalonians, the apostle Paul prophesied: "The Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first." (1 Thessalonians 4:16) In this scripture Jesus is described as having assumed his power as God’s Messianic King. Yet, he speaks with "an archangel’s voice." Note, too, that he has the power to raise the dead.

While on earth as a human, Jesus performed several resurrections. In doing so, he used his voice to utter commanding calls. For example, when resurrecting the dead son of a widow in the city of Nain, he said: "Young man, I say to you, Get up!" (Luke 7:14, 15) Later, just before resurrecting his friend Lazarus, Jesus "cried out with a loud voice: ‘Lazarus, come on out!’" (John 11:43) But on these occasions, Jesus’ voice was the voice of a perfect man.

After his own resurrection, Jesus was raised to a "superior position" in heaven as a spirit creature. (Philippians 2:9) No longer a human, he has the voice of an archangel. So when God’s trumpet sounded the call for "those who are dead in union with Christ" to be raised to heaven, Jesus issued "a commanding call," this time "with an archangel’s voice." It is reasonable to conclude that only an archangel would call "with an archangel’s voice."

Yes, there are other angelic creatures of high rank, such as seraphs and cherubs. (Genesis 3:24; Isaiah 6:2) Yet, the Scriptures point to the resurrected Jesus Christ as the chief of all angels—Michael the archangel

[Marcion]

thanks for the article! yes Paul was certainly speaking of the Christ having command over the angels, and that would explain then the epithet "Archangel." Only Michael bears that epithet, so that must be Christ's celestial name.

From my religious tradition, we Dualists believe the first Archangel was Lucifer, according to the Secret Revelation of John, he it was who alone commanded all the angels of Heaven. After Lucifer (now called Satan) rebelled with 1/3 the heavenly host it was Christ who became the new Archangel, and I've seen some scholars already point out that the Christ would have been identified with Michael by the Dualists. Well if Michael is the Christ, it certainly takes the vague mysterious nature away and gives Jesus a vivid image of greatness we can truelly understand

[JustifiedByFaith]

Originally Posted by mee

there is every indication in the scriptures that jesus is michael .also jesus is Gods son and inferior to Jehovah God .jesus has been given great aurthority in the heavens and is now a king of Gods kingdom in the heavens, and is invisibley rulingfrom there.

Dear mee,

Can I ask where you heard this about Jesus? The part about Jesus being inferior to God the Father?

[Abogado del Diablo]

Originally Posted by JustifiedByFaith

Dear mee,

Can I ask where you heard this about Jesus? The part about Jesus being inferior to God the Father?

Uh oh . . .

[JustifiedByFaith]

Originally Posted by Abogado del Diablo

Uh oh . . .

Uh oh..................here we go again....

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by JustifiedByFaith

Dear mee,

Can I ask where you heard this about Jesus? The part about Jesus being inferior to God the Father?

This is a valid question, however, one the answer of which should be listened to with an understanding that it is a belief that some hold very close to their "Christian identity". I for one am curious too.

v/r

Q

[JustifiedByFaith]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

This is a valid question, however, one the answer of which should be listened to with an understanding that it is a belief that some hold very close to their "Christian identity". I for one am curious too.

v/r

Q

Dear Quahom1,

Thank You. I agree. I do also look forward to the answer, I will only subject it to the light of the scriptures and not my personal opinions of course.

"All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work."

2 Timothy 3:16-17

[Abogado del Diablo]

Originally Posted by JustifiedByFaith

Dear Quahom1,

Thank You. I agree. I do also look forward to the answer, I will only subject it to the light of the scriptures and not my personal opinions of course.

Trust me . . . so will the other side in this debate.

[seattlegal]

Hmm, I'm pretty sure John chapter 14 will be brought up, by both sides of the debate...