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Old 09-27-2011, 04:26 PM   #31 (permalink)
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Re: Was JESUS the only heavenly being to incarnate into the human community from heav

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Now I could say we've all incarnated into the human community....
Yes you can, but that's a generalisation, and as such misses the point.

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Or we could say according to the various stories there were many....
Generalisation again.

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The Bible mentions Melchisideck as having no parents, of which Jesus was labeled a priest in his order...
So ... ?

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the only begotten of the continually begotten
That's wrong. The Son is begotten, the Father is not begotten.

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Old 09-27-2011, 04:36 PM   #32 (permalink)
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Re: Was JESUS the only heavenly being to incarnate into the human community from heav

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Maybe I should have first defined my definition of incarnation.
To understand what Christianity is saying requires you understand what Christianity means by what it says, not what you mean.

My definition of a circle could be 'something with five sides' — which is not going to help my kids doing their geometry homework.

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To me incarnation is when a heavenly being is sent into the human body for the purpose, a mission of sorts from GOD to help humanity in some way.
We-e-e-e-ll, that's very vague, and open to all sorts of misinterpretation. For example: What happened to the human who's body is was?

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I believe a human spirit doesn't come into existence until the sperm and egg unite and comes from a union of the two parents consciousness ...
OK, but that's not what Christianity believes.

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... where as heavenly beings have a prehuman body soul and spirit that is literally one and exist in the heavenly kingdom prior to coming into the human body.
They don't believe that either, so you're on your own here, I think?

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I do however believe in reincarnation where once a human spirit exists and the body dies that spirit can be born again into the human body.
Ditto.

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So do you think say for example that men like moses or buddha were these incarnated beings?
If you mean incarnate like Christ ... no, and nor do I think they claim to be, and I think the Buddha would say the question is invalid anyway?

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Old 09-27-2011, 04:38 PM   #33 (permalink)
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Re: Was JESUS the only heavenly being to incarnate into the human community from heav

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That's wrong. The Son is begotten, the Father is not begotten.
Maybe you can explain how this works...

The father is not begotten, so there was never a beginning... cool, whatever, logic and religion rarely coincide.

What exactly was God doing before he created the Universe? Why did he decide to create this existence? Even if you say there was a prior existence, God has still preceded it because he was not begotten. Where has he come from in the first place? Was God bored in heaven? Also, if the Father and Son are One, how can one beget the other? I'm confused.

When it boils down to it, none of this really matters at all, it is not going to help anything, it just appeases our intellects so we can move onto the next question. That is all such statements can ever do: create more questions.
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Old 09-27-2011, 04:39 PM   #34 (permalink)
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Re: Was JESUS the only heavenly being to incarnate into the human community from heav

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The texts say I have sent you saviours for a reason.
Whoa! What texts? What do they mean by the term 'saviour'?

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Old 09-27-2011, 04:45 PM   #35 (permalink)
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Re: Was JESUS the only heavenly being to incarnate into the human community from heav

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The christian concept of jesus is that when he took on a human body in the separated condition of non oneness that when that human body rose with his prehuman divine body that the human body was no longer separated.
Who's feeding you this? I'd ask for your money back. It's no Christian concept I've ever heard.

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So then you have a divine being with his divine body that was never separated from his soul and spirit but also his human body that became one with the human soul and spirit and the power to use either.
No. The 'divine' by (Christian) definition is not corporate, is not composed or parts, and transcends all forms such as 'body', 'soul', and 'spirit'.

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Old 09-27-2011, 04:50 PM   #36 (permalink)
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Re: Was JESUS the only heavenly being to incarnate into the human community from heav

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All divine beings are angelic beings or some says gods or goddesses depends on what terms are used.
Again, not in Christianity they ain't ... angels are not divine, they're angelic ...

There is an argument that polytheism was 'resolved' by relegating the gods to the angelic orders, but there's more to it than that.

In the same way Greek philosophy would argue that a God, to be God, must be Absolute and Infinite, and therefore there cannot be two or more gods, any more than there can be two absolute or two infinites.

So in the journey from polytheism to monotheism, angelology might be a nice solution, but it's gone a lot further than that now.

Angels, in the Christian Tradition, are, I think, radically different from angels in the Hebrew Tradition — but bananabrain might correct me there.

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Old 09-27-2011, 04:55 PM   #37 (permalink)
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Re: Was JESUS the only heavenly being to incarnate into the human community from heav

donnann: Jesus is simply an enlightened being.

You ask what happens to the human soul when this occurs? It never was to begin with, it is ego which insists we are something separate but we all have our being through God - we have never been separate, any of us. The enlightened person has simply gone into death - samadhi - and has retained nothing of himself afterwards, all that is done is God's will now, there is no possibility of free will.

Jesus has certainly been guided towards a very particular teaching, that of love for all and the ceasing of sacrifices. This will have been delivered through intuition, it is not true to say God has spoken from a cloud or whatever else - these are symbolic at most. If Jesus is God incarnate, then all enlightened people to ever exist have been God incarnate - that is at least millions of people since the dawn of man. Jesus has benefited from the Roman Empire adopting his faith to unify the Empire, but he wasn't even the only rabbi doing "miracles" in Israel at the time - thus likely not the only enlightened being present in that small part of the world.

Of course, Christians won't like this statement, but it is better than letting you try to wrap your head around all this incarnate stuff...
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Old 09-27-2011, 04:58 PM   #38 (permalink)
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Re: Was JESUS the only heavenly being to incarnate into the human community from heav

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Again, not in Christianity they ain't ... angels are not divine, they're angelic ...

There is an argument that polytheism was 'resolved' by relegating the gods to the angelic orders, but there's more to it than that.

In the same way Greek philosophy would argue that a God, to be God, must be Absolute and Infinite, and therefore there cannot be two or more gods, any more than there can be two absolute or two infinites.

So in the journey from polytheism to monotheism, angelology might be a nice solution, but it's gone a lot further than that now.

Angels, in the Christian Tradition, are, I think, radically different from angels in the Hebrew Tradition — but bananabrain might correct me there.

God bless,

Thomas
In Christianity, God cannot be absolute or infinite because humans are not God and retain souls after death - thus there is somewhere where God is not. Also, angelic beings too, apparently God is not where they are according to your statement here...
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Old 09-27-2011, 04:59 PM   #39 (permalink)
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Re: Was JESUS the only heavenly being to incarnate into the human community from heav

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To take on a human body you have to incarnate into the human skin. To do this at the point of conception the divine being descends into the egg and is sealed.
Maybe in your world, not in my (Christian) world.

We believe the Incarnation is a divine nature manifesting Itself in and through human nature ...

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Old 09-27-2011, 05:07 PM   #40 (permalink)
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Re: Was JESUS the only heavenly being to incarnate into the human community from heav

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Polytheistically, the history gives enough evidence to us that the world have many incarnated saviors way before Jesus.
Perhaps, but the Incarnation as understood of Jesus is different from the gods who walked among men ... so whilst that statement might be generally correct, once you look into the theological claims, and the metaphysucal principle, then no, I think in that instance Jesus Christ as the Incarnate Son of God and Second Person of the Blessed Trinity is unique.

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Old 09-27-2011, 05:09 PM   #41 (permalink)
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Re: Was JESUS the only heavenly being to incarnate into the human community from heav

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Maybe in your world, not in my (Christian) world.

We believe the Incarnation is a divine nature manifesting Itself in and through human nature ...

God bless,

Thomas
Which is basically the definition of enlightenment, except that it isn't an incarnation, it is a descending of the divine along with an ascension of the human. The result of that meeting can be called a Manifestation of God...
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Old 09-27-2011, 05:12 PM   #42 (permalink)
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Re: Was JESUS the only heavenly being to incarnate into the human community from heav

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Perhaps, but the Incarnation as understood of Jesus is different from the gods who walked among men ... so whilst that statement might be generally correct, once you look into the theological claims, and the metaphysucal principle, then no, I think in that instance Jesus Christ as the Incarnate Son of God and Second Person of the Blessed Trinity is unique.

God bless,

Thomas
Jesus did not walk among men?

The problem is that theologians are not enlightened themselves, so their words are essentially a nonsense. For me, man ought to collect text from legitimately enlightened people and learn from them all, not pick one and read all the commentary available on him.
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Old 09-27-2011, 05:14 PM   #43 (permalink)
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Re: Was JESUS the only heavenly being to incarnate into the human community from heav

what makes anyone think He (Yeshua the Nazarene) WAS incarnated (OP definition: a heavenly being sent into the human body for the purpose, a mission of sorts from GOD to help humanity in some way.), in the first place?
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Old 09-27-2011, 05:15 PM   #44 (permalink)
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Re: Was JESUS the only heavenly being to incarnate into the human community from heav

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There are no miracles and everything is a miracle....depending on your definition.
Quite.

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I believe that as well as
Which? You can't have both without reducing the terms to nothing.

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We are all divine, all incarnate, or none of us are...depending on your definition.
Quiote.

The point then is, definitions are really important. Either words meaning something, or they are just noise ...

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Old 09-27-2011, 05:20 PM   #45 (permalink)
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Re: Was JESUS the only heavenly being to incarnate into the human community from heav

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I have sent you saviors. Does anyone think that he was the only one that incarnated into the human community?
A problem with this question for Baha'is is that we don't see Jesus as a "heavenly being".. Jesus was a Prophet of God a Manifestation of God.. He is not God incarnate..We do not feel that God physically incarnated Himself, rather He a Manifestation of God...The Light of God in Him. So were there other Manifestations? In our view yes indeed.. We include Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah/
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