Was Persia worse in Baha'u'llah's time?

[Seeker_of_truth]

Was Persia worse in Baha'u'llah's time?

I have another question. I remember reading in the Writtings( i think in the Iqan) that Bahgdad would be exhalted or something along those lines, anybody know what that means?

[Postmaster]

Civilisation started in the Middle East and ever since then war and conflict has never ended. I'd like to think things are getting better, but they simply are not at present. They'll pick up a stone to throw at each other, but they won’t organise the stones into a house. Iraq seems along away before being exalted.

[arthra]

"I remember reading in the Writtings( i think in the Iqan) that Bahgdad would be exhalted or something along those lines, anybody know what that means?"

I think it would be best to actually find the verse you're seeking ...then view the context to see better or understand it's significance. A way to do this would be to go to the Baha'i Reference Library at

Baha'i Reference Library

and enter "Bagdad" in the search engine... You can do this for the Kitab-i-Iqan and see what you get....or try "Ocean".

- Art

[BruceDLimber]

Hi!

Originally Posted by Seeker_of_truth

Was Persia worse in Baha'u'llah's time?

I'd hesitate to say this.

As regards religion, it was terrible then, and it's still terrible now! :-(

"Small choice between rotten apples," I'm afraid!

Sad to say . . .

Regards,

Bruce

[Mick]

This is an interesting question. We know that Persia was once a beautiful and enlightening civilization that became corrupt and sullied. In "The Baha'i Faith; An Emerging Global Religion", it is suggested by the authors that Persia was chosen to introduce this new and world healing message to, because it was considered the most vile and morally corrupt region in the world. As a side note, they also suggest that the US was chosen to introduce the Administrative Order because it was the most politically corrupt area in the world.

I would think that Iran/Persia is no worse than it was during the time of The Bab and Baha'u'llah. I would hope it is measurably better. There our hundreds of thousands of Baha'is living in Iran and they alone will have made a difference in the souls of the people that live there. We believe that as the world is torn asunder, a wave of logic and rational thinking is slowly replacing the old power cells of greed and self-concern. We also believe that in spite of the strife we see in the world, we also see the citizens of the world becoming less tolerant of the atrocities of the past and more demanding of acceptance of world citizenry and world responsibility for each other.

[Postmaster]

Originally Posted by Mick

In "The Baha'i Faith; An Emerging Global Religion", it is suggested by the authors that Persia was chosen to introduce this new and world healing message to, because it was considered the most vile and morally corrupt region in the world. As a side note, they also suggest that the US was chosen to introduce the Administrative Order because it was the most politically corrupt area in the world.

I think that’s quite a romantic view which I don't buy. I wouldn’t view it as only a theological process but more a mechanical process is at work here. If God was so concerned with ROMANCE I'm sure he would have picked another world location to release such a religion, how many Babis and Baha’i have been a subject of oppression, torture and death due to the society it was born out of? I think a Paradox is at work, just like the anti-Semitic paradox, the more the European oppressed the Jews due to there difference the more they stuck with there cultural heritage and did not integrate and this inturn caused more friction. Sometimes something can only grow out of something sour instead of something fertile. Also it's abit Baha'i incorrect to say Persia or US was "chosen" I think?

[BruceDLimber]

Hi again!

Originally Posted by Postmaster

Also it's a bit Baha'i incorrect to say Persia or US was "chosen" I think?

If I'm not incorrect, the Baha'i scriptures state this specifically.

(Or if not our scriptures, definitely the writings of Shoghi Effendi, who was authorized interpreter and headed the Faith from 1921 to 1957.)

Regards,

Bruce

[Postmaster]

I remember once posting a thread on this forum maybe arthra will remember, I came across a text from Bahá'u'lláh writings quoting something like "know that the Christians and Jews have turned from God" and was quite disappointed in reading it. Because it's obvious he was writing for a Muslim audience, yet it’s the Christians of the west that embraced him the most. That phase alone has left me remaining quite sceptical of the Baha’i faith ever since.

Just found the quote

Now that the discourse hath reached this exalted and intractable theme and touched upon this sublime and impenetrable mystery, know that the Christian and Jewish peoples have not grasped the intent of the words of God and the promises He hath made to them in His Book, and have therefore denied His Cause, turned aside from His Prophets, and rejected His proofs. Had they but fixed their gaze upon the testimony of God itself, had they refused to follow in the footsteps of the abject and foolish among their leaders and divines, they would doubtless have attained to the repository of guidance and the treasury of virtue, and quaffed from the crystal waters of life eternal in the city of the

Why didn't he include the Muslims? Who denied him the most? To me it shows a some what flawed personality in Bahá'u'lláh.

In this part he even calls our divines foolish, what’s that about? I could be wrong but I’m pretty sure we don't consider our priests divine, but our saints.

had they refused to follow in the footsteps of the abject and foolish among their leaders and divines

[arthra]

"In this part he even calls our divines foolish, what’s that about? I could be wrong but I’m pretty sure we don't consider our priests divine, but our saints.

Quote:
had they refused to follow in the footsteps of the abject and foolish among their leaders and divines
.................................


Well if you read the quote it applies to the "abject and foolish among the divines". The word "divines" applies to religious leaders such as priests or clergy.

The reference that Postmaster quotes is from I believe "Gems of Divine Mysteries" a recently translated work of Baha'u'llah revealed quite early before His declaration.

It applies I believe to the rejection of Jesus by many of the Jewish people...and the rejection of Prophet Muhammad by Christians and Jews and so on...

It doesn't mean all Jewish and Christian people are bad or not capable of spiritual growth.

Some Muslims are not omitted from those who reject the Bab either..

So it is I rather think a "flaw" in our own perspective to take a sentence out of context from an early work of Baha'u'llah and project that into

"To me it shows a some what flawed personality in Bahá'u'lláh."

Just my opinion...

- Art

[Postmaster]

If thats what he ment then I have no problem with that. But you can't deny that the Christian west have embraced Baha'i more then the unspoken Muslims in that paragraph? I think Baha'u'llah in his mind must have thought his teachings would take more influence in the region he preached and that was never the case.

[arthra]

Originally Posted by Postmaster

If thats what he ment then I have no problem with that. But you can't deny that the Christian west have embraced Baha'i more then the unspoken Muslims in that paragraph? I think Baha'u'llah in his mind must have thought his teachings would take more influence in the region he preached and that was never the case.

Actually Postmaster there are references to Muslim divines elsewhere but they are too numerous to include here and they are exactly of the same nature of those referring to Christian divines.. The address of Baha'u'llah in that section is primarily related to Christians. He talks about the Gospels later.

When Baha'u'llah wrote the "Gems of Divine Mysteries" there were only Babis (followers of the Bab) and they had mostly come from Muslim, Zoroastrian and some Jewish backgrounds. Contact with Christians (of European background) came later.

Remember the "Gems of Divine Mysteries" was composed long before Baha'u'llah declared His Mission in 1863.

- Art

[Promethium]

Baha'u'llah was illustrating how Christians and Jews rejected Muhammad. And that Muslims were susceptible to the same mistake of rejecting a Messenger of God. Notice that Bahaullah quotes the new testament, asserting its religious athority, even though he is not directly speaking to a Christian audience.

[Popeyesays]

Originally Posted by Postmaster

If thats what he ment then I have no problem with that. But you can't deny that the Christian west have embraced Baha'i more then the unspoken Muslims in that paragraph? I think Baha'u'llah in his mind must have thought his teachings would take more influence in the region he preached and that was never the case.

Between 1850 and 1852, the Iranian Government killed as many as 20,000 Babi's. Tens of thousands of other Babi's went into hiding.

By 1970 there were more than half-a-million Baha`1i's in Iran, the largest single religious minority in the country, and this was after fifty years of being encouraged by the Guardian to leave Iran and take up teaching the cause around the world.

There are still about 300,000 there.

The Muslim authorities certainly do not think that the Baha`i Faith has been unsuccessful. They have never taken such concerted steps to wipe out a religious minority as they have with the Baha`i's and they have failed utterly to do so.

Now, Abdu'l Baha took serious interest in teaching the faith to the West from 1890 to to his death in 1892. The only westerner to ever be presented to Baha`u'llah was in 1892 just before His passing. And that presentation was largely through the arrangements of Abdu'l Baha.

Regards,
Scott

[arthra]

The Bible is accepted by Baha'is as inspired and that the Gospel is the respository of the teachings of Jesus... so you will see references to the Bible in Baha'i Writings.

- Art