We don't need 'The War Against Terror' what we need is war against sectarianism

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by KarimK

Banning the hijab was perceived as a direct assault on Islam. Yet another Western attack on our culture.
Well, f**k that. France is THE European country that has been standing alongside the Arabs since the 1960's (1967, the 6 days war.). I think the Muslim population in France is one of the highest in Europe. (not sure about that one though). Just switch on the mainstream French channels, and you'll see that Arabs and/or Muslims are NOT rejected by French society.

Boy am I sorry I said the word France However, you misunderstood me. I put in my post this comment:

Do you see it as "we don't want religious issues in school"

That is because I am fully aware that it is not an attack on Islam, it is an attempt by our governments to keep religious issues out of schools and make schools places for our children to learn, as they should be. Well, that is how I see it.

All I was trying to do was look at the issue through the eyes of those around me. Ask just about any Muslim scholar and he will say that if the hijab causes any difficulty that it can be removed without any shame, the role of the hijab is to protect women not cause them problems, they will also remind you that the laws of the country you live in must be followed above and beyond our religion.

So I was not trying to say that Muslims are right to feel offended by such small issues, just explain that they often do and perhaps more effort could be put into educating the Islamic world as to why these decisions are being made. Perhaps more dialogue with Islamic leaders in the country, who could themselves issue the instruction or educational information about the decision?

Originally Posted by KarimK

MW, I know how *some* Muslims feel that not wearing the hijab is like being naked. I know how *sometimes* girls (Muslims girls) not wearing the hijab are seen as sluts. Well, the people who think that, they have no place in France. It's as simple, clear-cut as that. This is not xenophobia (that'd be kind of hard on my part now, wouldn't it?) or Muslims-hating (also hard) , or anything. It's just common sense.

Obviously I didn't explain myself very well (or you were so busy ranting you misunderstood me ). I was not speaking about the Muslims in other countries. I was trying to explain how I see these issues are perceived back in the Middle East, by grass roots men and women. Most do not have your european understanding, or in fact mine. Then the loonie extremists come along and rant about the west trying to destroy Islam and people start to believe it. Most Egyptians have no idea what really goes on in the west, other than the news reports (same as westerners and the middle east and we know how biased the news can be), so they hear extremists ranting during Friday prayers about the "evil west making sluts of our daughters by banning the hijab" and hey presto another poor young sap ready to blow himself and others up to 'protect the honour of Islam". It was just my attempt to show how perfectly ordinary young men and women can be brought around to this way of thinking.

Do you understand me now? I do hope so, not sure I could take another ranting

[KarimK]

lol, my bad. don't worry, there'll be no other ranting. I shouldn't argue with you anyway, you could insult me in Arabic now

I just tend to go a bit crazy when I talk about some issues. You know how ranting can be very. um. you know. you get so into it you make a fool of yourself.

I'm going to shut up now.

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by KarimK

lol, my bad. don't worry, there'll be no other ranting. I shouldn't argue with you anyway, you could insult me in Arabic now

I just tend to go a bit crazy when I talk about some issues.

I'm going to shut up now.

No please don't shut up, I love talking to you and you obviously know already I am a pretty good ranter myself. It is a highly emotional issue and one we must all get involved in if change is ever to come.

I just found the most amazing paragraph in an arabic article about terrorism:

If no attention is directed at the inciters and those who justify [these acts] then we are fated with an endless night. It is necessary to launch a serious ideological war because these youth have been brainwashed in the name of religion and as such, they must be confronted with religion so as to protect our Islamic religion.

How brilliant is that!!

[Muslimwoman]

I was really delighted to see that Muslims marched in Scotland against terrorism, after that awful attempt to blow up Glasgow airport. Ordinary people came out of their homes and said "this is not Islam".

There were also full page adverts in the newspapers the other day saying terrorism is not Islam and we (ordinary Muslims) object to it being done in the name of Allah.

Insh'allah, perhaps the tide is turning and Muslims are realising that their small voices need to be heard and must be heard.

It really shames me that these people will go so far against our religion and say it is Islam. Perhaps I could understand their anger if they tried to attack military targets in the UK, as a protest against our military aggression in Iraq but we are forbidden, strictly forbidden, from killing civilians. Where do these crazy people get their ideas from?

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by Neemai

This is potentially a bit of a far-fetched and controversial theory, and more to do with politics than religion, but: What if the 'Islamic' terrorists are actually being funded, trained and inspired by the big money men behind the western governments in an attempt to unite and control the people of their own countries (through fear) and as an excuse to wage war wherever they like because ultimately war is better for the aggressor's economy (it promotes industry and research)?

... N

The deeper you dig, the more you study the web of connections what you say becomes irrefutable. Whats truly amazing in this modern era of the information super-highway is the way people deliberately turn a blind eye to it. Almost as great in scale as the power so few people wield is the apathy of mediocrity in the masses. Makes me howl at the moon.

Tao

[Pathless]

Originally Posted by sam1008

From this perspective you could say Bin Laden and Bush are actually on the same side they both believe in the supremacy of their own idealogy and their own way of life, they both have an 'us and them' mentality and say 'Your either with us or against us' and they both believe their killing is justified by their cause.

This caught my eye. I haven't read the whole thread, so this may be out of context. Just wanted to pop in here and say that I definitely feel Sam's statement is true. What we have now is a choice. On the one hand, there is war, conflict, demonizing, and dehumanizing. As we demonize and dehumanize the Other, we do the same to ourselves. Any form of warfare, in my opinion, is a practice and display of self-hatred, as well as an illustration of insecurity, fear of death. Because people fear death, they choose to inflict it on the Other, the demonized, before it is inflicted on them.

Ghandi and Martin Luther King Jr, as well as many others, embody a different approach. By refusing to react with violence, the pacifist chooses the possibility of self-sacrifice. Perhaps this is tied to a certain spirituality and fearlessness of death. But the acceptance of potential self-sacrifice without violent retaliation is not the whole response of the pacifist. In her refusal to participate in the cycle of violence, the pacifist is opening up the scenario. No longer are the options restricted to war, conflict, vengeance, and dichotomous thinking: "us" versus "them." The door has been opened on the possibility of cooperation.

There is a collective self-hatred in humanity, the loathing of existence, that manifests as war. Perhaps in the distant past war served more evolutionary purposes, but in the present it serves no evolutionary or protective purpose. The walls and boundaries that are served and reinforced by territorial war are illusory. They serve no purpose beyond keeping the human community separated, antagonistic, and in ignorance.

On the other side of the coin--I am simplifying--is a collective self-love. The practices symptomatic of this collective self-love are shared resources, the dissolution of boundaries, the celebration of diversity (not just the acceptance or "tolerance" of pluralism). Humanity can be united and diverse at the same time. We can respect different values and lifestyles while maintaining our own values and beliefs, even expanding those in the kind of cultural exchange that comes with a dynamic, pluralistic peace.

Rather than destroying ourselves through cultural rigidity, intolerance, and an unwillingness to change, we could blossom with the cultural fluency, the bounty of shared resources, and the joy of diverse and global communties by practicing dynamic and creative forms of peace.

This is a process that is not carried out by governments and armies. It is much simpler and easier, an individual process. By modeling in our own consciousness and through our indiviudla actions the vision we have for a peaceful world, we can holographically attune humanity. As Ghandi and Martin Luther King Jr were fond of saying, we must be the change we want to see in the world. As we act, we harmonize with Others, and a world of peaceful co-creation and creative solutions begins to blossom.

Peace,
Pathless

[Pathless]

shameless bump.

Hey, my post didn't register on the main board. Everyone, look at what I wrote!!!

[flowperson]

And a most excellent post it is my friend !

flow....

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by Pathless

There is a collective self-hatred in humanity, the loathing of existence, that manifests as war.

I agree with this statement Pathless. Why do you think that is, perhaps mankind's fear of it's own mortality? Or does it go deeper and back to the survival instincts (ie we want our tribe and descendants to survive so must destroy your tribe)?

Originally Posted by Pathless

Rather than destroying ourselves through cultural rigidity, intolerance, and an unwillingness to change, we could blossom with the cultural fluency, the bounty of shared resources, and the joy of diverse and global communties by practicing dynamic and creative forms of peace.

For this to happen we would need to rid ourselves of greed and apathy. We are all fully aware that there are people starving to death in the world but what are the majority doing about it? I find, very sadly, that most people do not look beyond their own threshold. They are aware of the difficulties in the world but feel powerless to change them. Look at global warming, people (generalisation) want it to stop but they don't want to stop flying to holiday or give up one of their cars - just wait for the government to do something. I have noted with sadness that over the past week a number of us have, on various threads, referred to Ghandi & Mother Teresa & Martin Luther & the Dalai Lama. Only the Dalai Lama remains alive. Are we really so devoid of peaceful leaders that in 6 billion people we can think of only one that stands up and calls for peace today??????

Salaam

[Pathless]

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

For this to happen we would need to rid ourselves of greed and apathy. We are all fully aware that there are people starving to death in the world but what are the majority doing about it? I find, very sadly, that most people do not look beyond their own threshold.

I find this to be true as well, and very discouraging. So I ignore it. I can't do anything about it anyway. This is not apathy, though. I just realize that I can't twist anyone's arm.

Yet I am motivated to live my own life in a certain way. This is all anyone has ever been able to do. We have to think for ourselves, act for ourselves, explore our own consciousness. This is really freaky for a lot of people. Why? Is it because when we start to act like this, we begin to recognize that we are alone?

We are alone as individuals and we are also alone collectively. At least until aliens of some sort poke their physical bodies into our realm of perception, all we've got is us, the animals, plants, and the Earth. That's enough, though.

And it is enough to be alone as an individual, too. In various kinds of spiritual practice, introspection leads the individual to recognize that aloneness is not really aloneness. That is, while we are individual beings, we are not actually "alone in the universe." The nightmare of science and rational thinking, which leads us to believe that we are stupid, yet acutely intelligent, pockets of flesh randomly mucking about the Earth, eating, sleeping, and crapping, only to hoard stuff and ultimately die, is not true. We are a collective consciousness. We are the universe! Each of us is a hologram, a unique cell in the vast living awareness that is the universe. It doesn't get any better than that--until it does, when we begin to recognize and accept that and take responsiblity for the world that we find ourselves in.

It's a contradiction. Although we're alone in the universe, we are not separate from it. The universe is alone, therefore we, as instruments of the universe, are alone. We are its appendages, its eyes and hands. We can move our own hands, but we cannot move the "Other" hands of the universe. But we can move, and be an example in moving. This is the Ghandian idea of being the change. In so doing, we commnicate and illustrate that possibility to others.

So we don't need to look to Ghandi or MLK or Mother Theresa anymore. We've all read enough books, perhaps. We've seen THE SECRET, we know what it is. Sure, it's nice to keep refining our intellectual understanding, but we are not armchair or academic philosophers only. We have to be activists. The only way that peace spreads is for people to act peacefully.

Peace cannot be imposed from outside, above, or below. That's another kind of practice, one of dominance. Humanity has tried that and, in some cases, continues to try it. Yet all of us are smart enough and conscious enough to look at reality and see that WAR of any kind, DOMINANCE of any kind, doesn't bring lasting change. It don't work. You cannot stand outside of yourself and make yourself act the way you would like yourself to act. You cannot impose goodness and peace on yourself. You must become goodness and peace. Acting in that way, goodness and peace will slowly begin to surround you.

This is just a note to myself.

Thanks MW.

Peace,
Pathless.

[Snoopy]

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

You can stay if you behave like us

Intended as a neutral comment in order to potentially be disagreed with by the maximum number of people: I, nor anyone else, am able to behave exactly as I might wish to, in any and every country of the world. Every country has its own laws, culture, and codes of behaviour; which people living there are expected to abide by. This applies EVERYWHERE, be it France, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, UK, US, the Maldives... KarimK has hit the nail on the head, there are what seems like irreconcilable tensions around this issue in our globalised village.

s.

[Snoopy]

Originally Posted by Pathless

Sure, it's nice to keep refining our intellectual understanding, but we are not armchair or academic philosophers only. We have to be activists. The only way that peace spreads is for people to act peacefully.

"There are not enlightened minds there are only enlightened actions."

- Shunryu Suzuki.

s.

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by Snoopy

Intended as a neutral comment in order to potentially be disagreed with by the maximum number of people: I, nor anyone else, am able to behave exactly as I might wish to, in any and every country of the world. Every country has its own laws, culture, and codes of behaviour; which people living there are expected to abide by. This applies EVERYWHERE, be it France, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, UK, US, the Maldives... KarimK has hit the nail on the head, there are what seems like irreconcilable tensions around this issue in our globalised village.

s.

Oh no Snoop you did the same thing as Karim, what I said was....

Do you see it as "we don't want religious issues in school" or do you see it as "we don't want Muslims in our school. You can stay if you behave like us."?

You see, I get that bit in bold. I was trying to explain the thinking of those around me. I know our governments policy is to not have religious issues in school but to some that know nothing of our culture, other than tv reports, it is seen in a different light. They see it as an attack on their culture. Here is an example, many years ago our government decided that Sihk's did not have to wear crash helmets on motorbikes because it went against their religion to remove the turban, also Sikh policemen did not have to wear helmets but were provided with police issue turbans. Now imagine as a Sikh if the government had said, no if you want to live in our society you must remove your turbans. Perhaps most Sikh's living in the UK would accept this (my apologies, I know nothing of the religion so do not know if it is offensive to even suggest this) but some and certainly many, in other lands, would see this as an attack on their religion.

I am not saying open the doors and allow all cultural practices but we are talking about dress here, a piece of material wrapped around the head. Perhaps someone can tell me if Sikh turbans have also been banned in schools or do they begin to wear them in later years?

I agree, we should follow the laws of the country we live in but at what point can those laws go beyond protection of society and start to interfere with people's basic human rights? Should we ban the wearing of 'gang' clothes, maybe priests should be banned from wearing robes? Yes they are silly, extreme examples but where does it stop? Look at the Christian girl and her 'chastity ring', has our society really got to the point where a girl should be banned from declaring her chastity???? Should we not be celebrating this instead of forcing our children into court? Could schools not come up with those coloured rubber wristbands that declare one's faith and allow only that symbol of religion to be worn in schools? Perhaps there could be some creative thinking instead of just banning these things?

I do not think that religion should be an issue in our multicultural schools but I do worry that we are trying so hard to not offend anyone that we will end up offending everyone.

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by Pathless

I just realize that I can't twist anyone's arm.

Oh but in some things you can, just in small ways. I am a keen recycler, when I got back to UK I was disgusted to find my family just throwing everything in the bin (glass, paper, etc). It took 3 days of arguing but I got my Mum to agree to a trial period. That was just a week ago and now we have recycling bins and after dinner last night I found the glass and plastic bottles and jars all washed and ready to go in the recycling boxes. If each of us could just change our surrounding a tiny bit then perhaps things would begin to change in a big way.

Originally Posted by Pathless

we begin to recognize that we are alone?

Wow you haven't noticed the other 6 billion people on the planet yet? We are not alone in birth or life, just in death and then we only answer for ourselves.

Originally Posted by Pathless

We are alone as individuals and we are also alone collectively. At least until aliens of some sort poke their physical bodies into our realm of perception, all we've got is us, the animals, plants, and the Earth. That's enough, though.

Oh good you did notice them LOL

Originally Posted by Pathless

We are a collective consciousness. We are the universe! Each of us is a hologram, a unique cell in the vast living awareness that is the universe. It doesn't get any better than that--until it does, when we begin to recognize and accept that and take responsiblity for the world that we find ourselves in.

But clearly people do not realise this or where would the apathy come from?

Originally Posted by Pathless

We have to be activists. The only way that peace spreads is for people to act peacefully.

That was my point, we are currently lacking in great activists, people worthy of following in example.

Originally Posted by Pathless

You cannot impose goodness and peace on yourself. You must become goodness and peace. Acting in that way, goodness and peace will slowly begin to surround you.

But surely that is where the learning process begins, to stand outside yourself and recognise that you are not good or peaceful and to desire to change that about yourself?

Originally Posted by Pathless

This is just a note to myself.

I think it is a note to us all, thank you.

Salaam

[Snoopy]

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

Oh no Snoop you did the same thing as Karim

Hi MW,

Did I? Or did you misunderstand me?

I’m not sure to what extent, if at all, I’m disagreeing with you, it was meant more as an observation. Yes I can see how requirements and laws in one country can cause offence in others but, as I was trying to say, this is inevitable in today’s world of multi-faith societies and high speed media communications (and of course, intolerance).

Taking up your Sikh example. I don’t wear anything on my head when I’m indoors normally. When I have been in Sikh temples I have worn a piece of material as expected of me. I am not a Sikh but I am complying with what is required in that environment. Is it not the other side of the same coin to require someone to wear a crash helmet when they are on a motorbike, if that is a requirement by law in that country? In passing such a law is the government not expressing its duty of care to its citizens? What if a motorcyclist is involved in a crash with a car and incurs a terrible head injury, or worse, because they were not wearing a helmet: is that OK with that person? With their family? With the driver of the car? With the medical staff attending to the scene and at the hospital?

s.