We don't need 'The War Against Terror' what we need is war against sectarianism

[Muslimwoman]

Hi Pathless

It is a lovely vision and a good understanding of the problem but I feel does not offer realistic solutions to the two main issues.

Firstly, general public apathy. People watch a documentary about global warming or child labour in India and they really care. Then they jump in their 4x4, drive to the airport and hop on a jet to go buy some cheap souvinirs produced by child slaves. Ermmmmm. Then once a year they chuck £20 in a charity box and think they are saving the world.

Secondly we have mega corporations. They are purely profit driven and couldn't give a monkeys uncle about deminishing world resources or oppressed people in "backward countries". The only way to change the corporations is with the power of the pound/dollar/yen/euro. Hey we are back to problem one.

So, in my mind, until someone comes up with a way to get the general consumer public to accept giving up their luxuries and turning the clock back, then we are on a collision course with nature. My money is on nature winning in the end.

The world is a very depressing place sometimes due to humankind.

Salaam

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

There's no way in hell they've got altruistic intentions for your pissant little nook of the globe if they're willing to cannibalize the consumer base here at home for a few extra nickels.

Let me guess.......that was the good news?

Sally

[China Cat Sunflower]

I love the fiery rhetoric Pathless! One of the effects of the prevalent propaganda in the West is that it is intended to produce disaffection in people who are smart enough to see through it. In that way it insidiously disenfranchises those individuals who have the greatest capacity to resist by convincing them that it's not worth trying to fight back. I may not be able to change the entire world, but I can fight back effectively from within my own sphere of influence and action.

Chris

[China Cat Sunflower]

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

Let me guess.......that was the good news?

Sally

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

I love the fiery rhetoric Pathless! One of the effects of the prevalent propaganda in the West is that it is intended to produce disaffection in people who are smart enough to see through it. In that way it insidiously disenfranchises those individuals who have the greatest capacity to resist by convincing them that it's not worth trying to fight back. I may not be able to change the entire world, but I can fight back effectively from within my own sphere of influence and action.

Chris

that was one of the most salient things I ever read here!

[Pathless]

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

I love the fiery rhetoric Pathless! One of the effects of the prevalent propaganda in the West is that it is intended to produce disaffection in people who are smart enough to see through it. In that way it insidiously disenfranchises those individuals who have the greatest capacity to resist by convincing them that it's not worth trying to fight back. I may not be able to change the entire world, but I can fight back effectively from within my own sphere of influence and action.

Chris

Yes and Amen. Be the change, brother, be the change.

[Pathless]

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

Hi Pathless

It is a lovely vision and a good understanding of the problem but I feel does not offer realistic solutions to the two main issues.

Firstly, general public apathy. People watch a documentary about global warming or child labour in India and they really care. Then they jump in their 4x4, drive to the airport and hop on a jet to go buy some cheap souvinirs produced by child slaves. Ermmmmm. Then once a year they chuck £20 in a charity box and think they are saving the world.

Secondly we have mega corporations. They are purely profit driven and couldn't give a monkeys uncle about deminishing world resources or oppressed people in "backward countries". The only way to change the corporations is with the power of the pound/dollar/yen/euro. Hey we are back to problem one.

So, in my mind, until someone comes up with a way to get the general consumer public to accept giving up their luxuries and turning the clock back, then we are on a collision course with nature. My money is on nature winning in the end.

The world is a very depressing place sometimes due to humankind.

Salaam

Hi MW. Is all of this really true? I know many, many, many people who are not apathetic at all. There are many engaged activists where I live. And concerned citizens from all walks of life are increasingly taking action all over the globe.

I don't believe that effective change is going to come from above. It cannot come from the forces now in power. They are too invested in their power, like you stated, with your critique of "mega-corporations" not giving a rat's ass.

Corporations are not people. Oddly enough, in the United States at least, corporations have the same rights as individual people. At the same time, corporations are made up of actual living, feeling, individual people. They are capable of compassion and they are capable of critical thought. The combination of those two qualities in an individual is powerful enough to spur them to walk away from the corporation and make drastic changes in their own lives. How often this happens, I'm not sure. That it does happen, I am sure. Change comes from within, not without. We can impose rules and regulations on corporations until the End of Time, but that is just playing the "power over" game again with a new set of rules. Another option if for people to increasingly walk away, turn from corporate model to cooperative model. This, I think, is the inevitable trend of the future.

Again, it comes down to that idea of you can't twist anyone else's arm. Well, sometimes you can, you said... And yes, you can. But how effective is it? And with the example you gave of your recycle situation with your family: to me, it sounds more like that was a situation where someone (you) led by example. That is effective. Imposing rules from without is not.

Visionary? Yes. Impractical? Perhaps, perhaps not. Anyhow, impracticallity is an absurd label to slap on it if you ask me, because the model of coercing the "general consumer public" is equally impossible and impractical. The most effective way to coerce a large chunk of people like that is through totalitarian laws. Let's not do that.

Individual change is a realistic solution. Individual change is exponential. The more people practice their own core human values, modeling those for others, the more this individual change spreads in society. It's like a virus, but a healthy one. In this way, critical mass can and will be reached through individual change.

Also, don't forget the youth! They are less full of social programming and closer to innate human values. They're less corrupt, and because of that, more easily inspired, less apathetic.

The future is very bright. Perhaps hot as well. Change is in the air.

[17th Angel]

What WE -need- is a freaking war agaisnt them damn French... Who's with me!

*raises his fist in the air and marches out into the streets*

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by Pathless

Hi MW. Is all of this really true? I know many, many, many people who are not apathetic at all. There are many engaged activists where I live. And concerned citizens from all walks of life are increasingly taking action all over the globe.

To what degree Pathless? A small example. I watched a documentary recently about a family that have 'gone green'. They use lemons to clean the toilet and so avoid bleach. They buy organic food and so avoid pesticides etc. They recycle, they compost, use low energy lightbulbs, etc. Now, my hat off to them, they are trying to do their bit. However, when they traced the products they are using as alternatives many of them went back to 'slave labour' in poor countries. They came up with 100 reasons why they MUST have their 4x4 instead of a car (oh yes it was to pull a caravan). And this was a family that were totally committed. Small changes can make a small difference to the world, but what I am suggesting is that we need people to make big changes, to give up some of the MUST have's of modern day living. The world cannot sustain the growth in humankind and it's current use of resources.

Originally Posted by Pathless

At the same time, corporations are made up of actual living, feeling, individual people. They are capable of compassion and they are capable of critical thought.

They are also capable of arrogance and greed. So for every person that realises the mistake and walks away there are 10 standing behind them waiting to take their place.

Originally Posted by Pathless

This, I think, is the inevitable trend of the future.

I really wish I could believe that but I do not have that much faith in human nature on a global scale anymore.

Originally Posted by Pathless

That is effective. Imposing rules from without is not.

Let us take the example of refuse disposal in the UK. We are a small island and land is running out for the disposal of refuse. We are 20 years behind other european countries on recycling. For the last 10 or so years we have poured billions into this problem, education programmes, scientific models, etc but we are still nowhere near our targets. About 5 years ago the government had to begin imposing rules, to force people to cut down on the waste going to landfill sites. These new rules are not popular, they are causing problems BUT they are working, the statistics for waste to landfill are in fact falling. We live in a society that has never been held responsible for the waste it produces, you just put your bin out on Tuesday and the waste magically disappears. Now we have the uphill struggle to change the attitudes of people, to make them care about 'rubbish'. The problem is of our own making, caused by our own apathy.

Originally Posted by Pathless

Individual change is a realistic solution. Individual change is exponential. The more people practice their own core human values, modeling those for others, the more this individual change spreads in society. It's like a virus, but a healthy one. In this way, critical mass can and will be reached through individual change.

Individual change is the only solution but how do we get people, en-mass, to want to change, to give up some of the 'stuff' we are all addicted to?

Originally Posted by Pathless

Also, don't forget the youth! They are less full of social programming and closer to innate human values. They're less corrupt, and because of that, more easily inspired, less apathetic.

They are also addicted to technology, to luxury, to travel and to 'ambition'. So how do we convince them to give up those things and use the road less travelled?

Salaam

[Pathless]

Hi M, Emma, Sally, Em-Double-You. You make some very valid points. What it comes down to me, perhaps out of willful naivite, is focus. Problems abound. They are depressing as hell. What can I do? Can I implement radical change in the world? Well, yes and no. Yes by making changes in my own life, No by proselytizing to others. The consciousness of Western Civilization is rife with negative approaches. What we need, I maintain, are positive ones.

The family you saw on TV is just that, a family on TV. A symptom of that documentary culture. They are making efforts, those are commendable, but like you imply, they have a very long way to go. This is a good thing, in a way. Hopefully people like that will be committed (although with the SUV thing it seems not) and will continue to progress in making changes in lifestyle.

I know many people in my nook of the world that prefer biking or walking to driving. We are blessed here with small communities where such transportation is indeed viable. Most cities are not set up that way, and in the states, mass transportation is generally ghettoized. People don't like to take it for various reasons, but perhaps the most ridiculous and persistent reasons boil down to issues of status.

Status-seeking and materilalism are some primary obstacles in the way of simplification and sustainability. Sometimes I do find myself thinking that the vast majority of humans are stupid, short-sighted, ugly, and uncaring. Yet I don't like what that attitude does to me, so I re-focus again. So what if they are? How much does that affect me and what I am doing in my life?

To an extent, I choose to live in a bubble. It is a good bubble, though, an environment of my own crafting, often revised. When I have to travel for extended periods outside of my bubble, I may get overwhelmed, irritable, and discouraged. So I retreat back to the bubble, draw sustenance, practice hope and beauty, then go back out for shorter periods. I believe that by living in this way I am shaping environments--not just my own, but also those in the public sphere. I firmly believe that this is the best that I am capable of, at this point in time. I hope to have more public impact in the future.

So it is with me, and also I hope with others. Yes, the environment is toxic; yes, people are corruptible and have a tendency towards ignorance and self-service; yes, I too am corruptible and succeptible to all sorts of deprecations, hurtful emotions, and vices (I define these as sins against my inmost nature, not necessarily vices or sins in the typical religious sense); yes, the world is warming up, climate is changing; yes, billions of people are impoverished. I have decades of practice of allowing myself to be mired in apathy, lethargy, depression, and hopelessness arising out of the deplorable state of the world. To an extent, I feel it necessary to turn a blind eye on the whole scene (the big picture), but not out of apathy anymore. I have to do this in order to focus. We each have to pick our battles, start somewhere. Or we can choose to stare at the whole pile of shi-- and be critical and overwhelmed. That's an option. Yet for me, it is not a good choice. For me, looking at the problems as problems is paralyzing. Picking a few and zooming in to the opportunity that is there in crisis, that works for me.

My thoughts,
P.

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

What WE -need- is a freaking war agaisnt them damn French... Who's with me!

*raises his fist in the air and marches out into the streets*

I am of course, well we are British - hating the French is still law here isn't it?

[Muslimwoman]

Hi Pathless

What a wonderful mind you have and I hope more follow in your path.

Perhaps we should all learn this prayer by heart:

Serenity Prayer
God grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
the courage to change the things I can;
and the wisdom to know the difference.
Living one day at a time;
Enjoying one moment at a time;
Accepting hardships as the pathway to peace;
Taking, as He did, this sinful world
as it is, not as I would have it;
Trusting that He will make all things right
if I surrender to His Will;
That I may be reasonably happy in this life
and supremely happy with Him
Forever in the next.
Amen.
~ Reinhold Niebuhr

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

I am of course, well we are British - hating the French is still law here isn't it?

Hate to burst your bubble but that is a peculiarly English pastime and not at all shared up here by us skirt wearing heathens. Quite the contrary I feel there is much to be learned from the French. I think this English slating of the French to be a symptom of latent jealousy to be honest. just my oponion

[Tao_Equus]

Pathless,
I agree with sally, that was an inspirational post.

Tao

[China Cat Sunflower]

Originally Posted by Sally

To what degree Pathless? A small example. I watched a documentary recently about a family that have 'gone green'. They use lemons to clean the toilet and so avoid bleach. They buy organic food and so avoid pesticides etc. They recycle, they compost, use low energy lightbulbs, etc. Now, my hat off to them, they are trying to do their bit. However, when they traced the products they are using as alternatives many of them went back to 'slave labour' in poor countries. They came up with 100 reasons why they MUST have their 4x4 instead of a car (oh yes it was to pull a caravan). And this was a family that were totally committed. Small changes can make a small difference to the world, but what I am suggesting is that we need people to make big changes, to give up some of the MUST have's of modern day living. The world cannot sustain the growth in humankind and it's current use of resources.

Once upon a time I was going to try to do everything right. I found out pretty quickly that you've got to choose your battles. There's always this trade-off between ideology and practicality. I can't be all holy and sh** and still live in the world. Still, what really matters is what I do. It's important to be honest about it. And there's more to it than finding some improbable way to never hurt a flea. I became a craftsman for this very reason. One thing that the world desperately needs is a re-commitment to honest excellence in the pursuit of livelihood. I can do that! I will do that. So maybe I'm not 100% solar, maybe I eat animals, maybe in a lot of little ways I'm not perfect, but I am doing this one important thing: restoring people's trust in honest craftsmanship one person at a time. My word is my bond, and my hand on yours means something. I think that's valuable.

Chris