Wedding at Canna, Jesus' first miracle...

tommy · 06-14-2005, 05:16 PM

During the Wedding feast in Canna, Jesus performed his first miracle, the making of water into wine. John 2:1-11. There is something that really puzzles me about this. We read in the Bible that it is OK to drink in moderation. However, we know Jesus said fill the water jars with water and fill them to the brim. Lots of planning goes into a Wedding and John 2:9 tells us there was a "Director of the Feast" that must have been involved in the planning. Therefore, when the wine ran out, perhaps the attendees consumed more then anticipated. Now the miracle was performed and it built faith among his Disciples. However, it makes we wonder if Jesus was really all that much against certain human pleasures in life including enjoying spirits a little beyond the normal limit. But today, if someone is served too much alcohol at a festivity, usually the host is responsible to make sure everybody drives home safely and could also be legally responsible for their safe return after the party. So, let 's say these jugs were now filled to the brim and someone with a low tolerance level has let's just say two more glasses of wine after it ran out beyond their limit. These people had to get to the Wedding somehow, maybe on a Donkey. Further lets assume that this man with low tolerance rides home with his 16 year daughter on the back of the Donkey and because of the extra wine goes down a steep hill and his daughter falls off and is critically injured. If this happened then Jesus could have even been sued in todays standards for providing the miracle which in term made the wine available. Now the miracle could have been Mary saying, look the flowers have all wilted and we have no flowers. Then Jesus could have said look women, bring me a flower and then turned all the surrounding hills and pastures into flowers everywhere galore and amazed the crowd with nature versus alcohol and accomplished the same thing. I am not really convinced that Jesus was all against a little bit of drinking even somewhat over the normal limit with this miracle where he made more, but do agree scripture says not to over indulge in alcohol. Perhaps there is a meaning here why consuming more alcohol was involved in the first miracle that I am not grasping, but have always wondered this? Have a great day, love tommy

Bandit · 06-14-2005, 05:22 PM

right. so if you plan on consuming at the wedding, dont drink & drive

Quahom1 · 06-14-2005, 05:46 PM

I think you are reading too much into this story. The wedding may not have been planned so well. There may have been many more people attending than anticipated. This could have set the Wine Captain into a panic. He may have been muttering aloud his concerns and Mary overheard him.

Mothers know when the time is right (mostly), and this mother may have been God inspired. She turned to her son and said "make it happen".

It has nothing to do with alcohol abuse, as there is absolutely no inference to alcohol abuse in the story. Jesus said, "my time is not yet", not - they're drunk.

Mom, then said to the wine captain "Do as he tells you."

There is nothing worse than an ex cigarette smoker, a recovering alcoholic, or a former believer in one form of faith, implying to others that they are wrong. The log in one's eye is much larger than the speck in another's...

Something to think about.

v/r

Q

path_of_one · 06-14-2005, 05:57 PM

I agree it was probably due to poor planning. This happens at weddings today all the time!

And as for the don't drink and drive, donkeys are intelligent creatures and can steer themselves home. It's the old addage about the horse taking the cowboy home... I've seen it happen.

tommy · 06-14-2005, 06:01 PM

Would this include Jesus in disclosing false teachings Quahom1 (I do love reading your posts) of his time, the reason the Jews wanted him but to death?

Quahom1 · 06-14-2005, 06:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tommy

Would this include Jesus in disclosing false teachings of his time, the reason the Jews wanted him but to death?

Ok, the suspense is killing me. What "false" teaching are we to consider?

The Jewish "priests" of the day knew He was teaching the truth...it was their power base they were worried about. They could care less about the new world...they were happy with the one they controlled. They were in power. GOD was encroaching upon their territory! They became (in their minds) bigger than God (since God didn't come in a more obviously powerful version) Might makes right. We are talking about "Stiff Necked Jews" (as Phyllis reminds me). Unless your club is bigger than mine, I run the roost...

It happens all the time.

v/r

Q

tommy · 06-14-2005, 06:58 PM

Quahom1, OK, lets be honest, I am trying to read between your lines so here is your quote I was referring to. There is nothing worse than an ex cigarette smoker, a recovering alcoholic, or a former believer in one form of faith, implying to others that they are wrong. The log in one's eye is much larger than the speck in another's...

I knew I ran that risk in posting Revelations yesterday and when you mentioned you had pretty thick skin and also said you might have some questions as well and encouraged me to post it. I went ahead and put hours putting it together for purposes of debate. Lets be real honest, did you find my thread I posted yesterday on Revelation, are you Ready, disturbing? I find all of those topics disturbing in Revelations other then the eventual Kindom of Jesus at the end in Rev 20 and really want to be proved wrong because I too am not sure if the comments are all right as I have not converted so far to anything new officially as a Bible Student and thats why I am poking around on a comparative site. Wherever and whomever I have discussed those issues, the main theme seems to be, don't try and convince people their wrong rather then a discussion of the issues and the questions brought up. So I peacefully welcome going back to that post on Revelations and having a true debate and discussion on the issues raised if that is the inspiration from the above quote. tommy

lunamoth · 06-14-2005, 07:20 PM

Dear tommy,

Yours is an interesting take on the wedding feast episode! I'm sure that overindulgence in alcohol was a fact at many a wedding in Jesus' time, as it is now, but I would hesitate to conclude that Jesus meant to be an enabler, as it were, when He performed this miracle. Sticking to the literal for a moment, I agree with you that the Bible does not prohibit enjoying the pleasant things in life, including moderate alcohol consumption. Actually, I wonder whether there was a stronger social more against alcohol abuse 2000 years ago than there seems to be today, or what happened to alcoholics in that day. To me the toll on highway deaths is just the tip of the ice berg compared to the destruction alcohol abuse causes in many lives today.

But, here is another take on that particular episode, not saying that this is the only or even best one. Perhaps the wine signifies something other that just the alcoholic beverage. Maybe it's pointing at the kind of spiritual transformation Jesus can make in the lives of people, elevating the ordinary to the sublime. And, if you believe in the sacrament of the eucharist, the wine represents the blood of Jesus. So we could be looking at Jesus pointing to what will come later, a feast in which He is consumed as the bread and the wine, and at a wedding no less! It's a beautiful bookend, so to speak, coming at the very start of His ministry, a ministry that will end (physically, at least) with the last supper. Certainly, overindulgence in this spiritual wine could only be good.

peace,
lunamoth

tommy · 06-14-2005, 07:34 PM

I too believe in the taking of the bread and wine in the in memory of his death annually, not just the annointed ones and this is one of the issues I have where I am a Bible Student now. I have an issue with not celebrating Mothers Day, we must honor try Mother and Father. But I love the material presented and the praise of Jehovah's name and the rewards my family gets from it. I really want to find the right religion and if anyone has read my posts and can tell me what religion my beliefs are where you don't have to preach to the public and celebrate Mothers and Fathers Day, please throw them out here. I like the one I am following, the JWs, in the sense of doing five meetings a week and the deep sincere devoting to God and Jesus. I am truly sorry too if anything I have put up is offensive to anyone in my seek for the truth. I am searching real hard. As much as I have gained recently there are times I feel lost. love tommy

lunamoth · 06-14-2005, 08:00 PM

Dear tommy,

Your earnest search for just the right religion is very moving and it is clear that you are deeply sincere in your love of God. My belief is that you need not worry that you will pick the wrong denomination or sect. Using a phrase I've seen others here use, I don't think it is a salvation issue and I would worry about any denomination that emphasizes fear of doing/believing the wrong thing and conforming to outward appearance over trusting in God and loving your neighbor, including that part about not trying to remove the speck from his eye.

This, of course, is just my 2c. Best wishes to you in your search.

In His Peace,
lunamoth

Bandit · 06-14-2005, 08:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tommy

I too believe in the taking of the bread and wine in the in memory of his death annually, not just the annointed ones and this is one of the issues I have where I am a Bible Student now. I have an issue with not celebrating Mothers Day, we must honor try Mother and Father. But I love the material presented and the praise of Jehovah's name and the rewards my family gets from it. I really want to find the right religion and if anyone has read my posts and can tell me what religion my beliefs are where you don't have to preach to the public and celebrate Mothers and Fathers Day, please throw them out here. I like the one I am following, the JWs, in the sense of doing five meetings a week and the deep sincere devoting to God and Jesus. I am truly sorry too if anything I have put up is offensive to anyone in my seek for the truth. I am searching real hard. As much as I have gained recently there are times I feel lost. love tommy

dear tommy,
if you do this, it is all fine. but i think that if we are looking for one organization or one specific doctrine to have all the answers, we are going to find ourselves church hopping a lot & at the end become disappointed with them all.
i know you are sincerly searching & feeling lost is ok too.

at some point we all have to break away from certain things & find out for ourselves. what i am saying is, dont count on any specific religion to take you through it all the way. while some things make sense for awhile, we later keep searching for ourselves & find out, they dont all add up the way some claim it does.

i am not putting my trust in any religion, political power, economical power, or scientific discovery.
i do believe the answers are in the bible but we have to search for ourselves & that takes our whole lifetime

so hang in there & be strong.

lunamoth · 06-14-2005, 08:14 PM

Q, re-reading this thread I just discovered that you referred to the "log from the eye" verse as well. Just wanted you to know I was not referring to your post in any way.

lunamoth

I, Brian · 06-14-2005, 08:53 PM

I'll maybe not explain this well, but I'm sure I've read a claim somewhere suggesting something like:

1. There were/are prohibitions about use of wine in some Jewish weddings (perhaps mixed marriages??)
2. By presenting wine, Jesus was assuming Rabbinical authority
3. It was his presumption of Rabbinical authority while also challenging Rabbinical tradition that Jesus was being chiefly criticised for

Not sure of the validity of that interpretation, but it would add an interesting non-literal level to the event.

Faithfulservant · 06-14-2005, 08:56 PM

a little wine is good for the stomachs sake.. God doesnt condemn drinking He condemns drunkeness..

Blessed87 · 06-14-2005, 09:42 PM

Something I haven't seen discussed on this issue yet is the social implications of running out of wine at a Jewish wedding in that time. The only link I could find quickly was in this sermon (I promise it does not blast any religion) http://www.allsaintsbrookline.org/sermons/DK011804.html

Having the wine run out was a major social blunder. Hope this helps.