What about Hell... - Page 2

mee · 07-12-2005, 09:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Proph 1

Oh...you mean like an idiom, right? If so, I agree and see that the Bible uses these idioms to describe certian things, including hell. The nature of hell is spiritual not physical, and God used physical symbols to describe by representation something that is otherwise impossible. That said, I believe it is obvious that Jesus was speaking about a litteral place, especially when considering his extreme teaching on the subject. Note his parable of Lazarus who was fully conscious of his surrundings.

Also, you mentioned the different words used to describe Hell in the Bible and gave some historical meanings. Yet, I wonder if you understand its meanings? The Hebrew Sheol, and the Greek Hades, are not the grave as you may believe. The grave is where the body goes. Sheol and Hades is where the departed spirits go. (For this brief discussion, we'll regard them as equivalent.) Gehenna, however, is their final disposition. Hades is cast into Gehenna at the end. (In fact, their topology appears to be opposites: Hades is presented as geocentric; Gehenna is in "the outer darkness.")

Also I say again. It is significant that Jesus spoke much more about "Hell" than He did about Heaven. The very concept of the need for a Savior presupposes the avoidance of the otherwise certain destiny of desolation and eternal punishment. The good news is that you and I are the beneficiaries of a love letter: a letter written in blood on a wooden cross erected in Judea about two thousand years ago and which is the fulcrum of all history and the entire universe. The crucifixion was not a tragedy: it was a crowning achievement. His achievement makes it possible to avoid an otherwise certain destiny.

Ok so a person like Hitler just simple ceases to exist? Where's the punishment for his crimes? Dont you think if you're right, he got off kind of easy?

anyone who does not get everlasting life has been punished ,thats good enough for me, i dont need to think that anyone is going to suffer. as long as they are out the way why bother with them any longer . those enjoying everlasting life will have to many good things in life to even think about them.

Proph 1 · 07-12-2005, 10:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mee

anyone who does not get everlasting life has been punished ,thats good enough for me, i dont need to think that anyone is going to suffer. as long as they are out the way why bother with them any longer . those enjoying everlasting life will have to many good things in life to even think about them.

Man, that sucks! If there is no eternal punishent, then God is not a good God. How can he be just if there is no justice? You're basically saying that evil men can do whatever they want in this life, because they'll just cease to exist when they die. So go ahead and sin all you want, you'll just die and cease to exist.

Thats just what Satan wants us to think!

Quahom1 · 07-12-2005, 11:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mee

anyone who does not get everlasting life has been punished ,thats good enough for me, i dont need to think that anyone is going to suffer. as long as they are out the way why bother with them any longer . those enjoying everlasting life will have to many good things in life to even think about them.

Though God is a merciful God, He is also a Just God, and no good judge lets the guilty go free of punishment. Or else He would have no business being a judge.

God made no mistake that He will judge man...there is no easy out.

v/r

Q

truthseeker · 07-12-2005, 11:31 PM

Anyone who has been so close to God that they have felt like they can reach out and touch his face knows what it is to be distant from him as well. There is no peace when you are distant from God. Those who have never been very close would not know of the peace. Those who have experienced that peace will do whatever is necessary to maintain it and are very careful to understand the boundaries. To be in the presence; peace, love, protection, security - of God and then look around and it's gone, is hell. All the things symbolically described in Revelation - for eternity!
God need not waste more time on pointing out to you where to go because in the midst of the darkness, you wouldn't be able to see.

Quahom1 · 07-13-2005, 12:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by truthseeker

Anyone who has been so close to God that they have felt like they can reach out and touch his face knows what it is to be distant from him as well. There is no peace when you are distant from God. Those who have never been very close would not know of the peace. Those who have experienced that peace will do whatever is necessary to maintain it and are very careful to understand the boundaries. To be in the presence; peace, love, protection, security - of God and then look around and it's gone, is hell. All the things symbolically described in Revelation - for eternity!
God need not waste more time on pointing out to you where to go because in the midst of the darkness, you wouldn't be able to see.

That is a good point. However, I think there is much more to this than just being without God. Our spirits are after all, immortal...

v/r

Q

Bandit · 07-13-2005, 01:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Though God is a merciful God, He is also a Just God, and no good judge lets the guilty go free of punishment. Or else He would have no business being a judge.

God made no mistake that He will judge man...there is no easy out.

v/r

Q

hey Q

i think there is a judment & there is a punishment also. but i am also seeing that the unrepented/ unbeliever/ wicked is destroyed. (perhaps after the final judgment?)

what do you think about that one verse Q, where Jesus said to fear him that is able to destroy both the body & soul (in hell)?
i am paraphrasing, but would like to hear what you & the others see in that.

it seems to me, if God can make, he would be able un-make it also?

lunamoth · 07-13-2005, 02:11 AM

Well, what if the afterlife is more like a gathering by God, gathering back what is His. As we go through this life we can take the gifts He's given us and nurture them, expand upon them, use and strengthen them, or we can let them wither and die. At the end that part of us that is God's shall return to Him, it could be a lot or it might be just a little. Our sin and rebellion are what get cast into the fire. The hell of judgement could very well be total clarity of what we did and what we could have done, yet did not.

Acknowledging the source of those gifts and having God and Jesus and the Spirit in our lives during this lifetime is the everlasting life. Obviously you need to believe that to be refreshed by His waters in this life. You need to stand in the sun to feel the warmth of the light. But, unlike the common metaphor in which the pastor holds out the dollar and tells you to go ahead and take it, it's yours, it's free, but it's only yours when you actually accept it, God never puts the bill back in His pocket. He keeps holding it out until you need it, and He never has a smirk on His face when you realize that and take it. He'll be there at the pearly gates still holding it out.

peace,
lunamoth

Proph 1 · 07-13-2005, 03:18 AM

"Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my word will live forever."

God spoke a word and we became living souls. Our bodies can die, but our soul will live forever and forever. Where the soul lives forever however, depends on if we recieve or deny God's provision for Salvation. If we recieve God's salvation gift of Jesus, we will begin to change; that process is called "born again." If we dont recieve it, we'll be judge by the Law, and the law condemns. The soul that is condemned will go apart from God for all eternity in a place called hell. It should be said that NO bad person will ever go there. If being bad was the mandate for a soul going to hell, we would ALL be there. Again, a soul will only go there if they refuse to accept the truth of what Jesus did, and willingly rely on their own understanding and works. These such will go to the place that was created for Satan and his angels. This dimention existing simontanously juxtaposed with Heaven, according to the Bible is a literal place of undescrible pain and agony. We shouldnt be taking it so likely!

Quahom1 · 07-13-2005, 03:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bandit

hey Q

i think there is a judment & there is a punishment also. but i am also seeing that the unrepented/ unbeliever/ wicked is destroyed. (perhaps after the final judgment?)

what do you think about that one verse Q, where Jesus said to fear him that is able to destroy both the body & soul (in hell)?
i am paraphrasing, but would like to hear what you & the others see in that.

it seems to me, if God can make, he would be able un-make it also?

With all due respect to Proph and Luna, I am of the firm opinion that the wrath of God can not be denied. He can wipe us out, and never look back, if we push Him in such a way. I think some of man will push Him in such a way, in time...

v/r

Q

lunamoth · 07-13-2005, 04:18 AM

I believe God could extinguish a soul and I believe God could put a soul in eternal torment, but I can't believe that God would put a soul in eternal torment for even a lifetime's worth of accumulated sins of ommission and commission, with or without the covering blood of Jesus. This lifetime is fleeting, our lights are dimmed by the heaviness and weakness of the flesh. We are born with impediments both physical and mental, environmental and nurture-related, impediments forseen by God. And eternity, well, eternity is a long time. Yes we have free will to turn toward or away from God, yes our lives are largely affected by the beliefs we hold, yes I believe there will be God's judgement, but it will be God's judgement, not the judgement we humans can conceive. I think we are notoriously bad at figuring out what true justice really looks like.

It is my understanding that the concept of an afterlife, much less hell, was not part of the Jewish worldview until almost the time of Jesus. I think about that. All of those commandments to bring the faithful into a righteous relationship with God, keeping all the laws and ceremonies and sacrifices, not for some reward in heaven or to avoid punishment in hell, but for a holy life in their earthly timespan. Interesting, no?

lunamoth

PS In spite of possible appearances, I'm not trying to take the edge off the concept of hell. I quake in my boots at the thought of standing before God with both of us knowing full well every thing I ever did, every word ever said, every thought ever made. But, would a truely just God put Gandhi in hell? And even if Hitler were to go twice through the torment of every victim of his cruel actions, it would not be eternity.

Quahom1 · 07-13-2005, 05:38 AM

God allowed fallen angels to be in torment for at least the last 10,000 years? They were the cream of His crop, but they crossed Him. Still think God isn't capable of putting us in our place?...

v/r

Q

Bandit · 07-13-2005, 05:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quahom1

With all due respect to Proph and Luna, I am of the firm opinion that the wrath of God can not be denied. He can wipe us out, and never look back, if we push Him in such a way. I think some of man will push Him in such a way, in time...

v/r

Q

that is how i feel too. my dad always says, God is not going to tolerate it because He does not have to tolerate it.

we had an elderly man in our church years ago. i talked with him a couple of times on this & he had so much love in him, that he did not want to see anyone perish not even the devil. but he knew according to the scriptures someone is not written in the Lambs book of life. & he cried & said, "maybe someday we wont know about it, but maybe even the devil will repent & God will forgive him & everyone will be in heaven."...& he just cried.
i think God cries over this too.

but what else is God supposed to do? He promised the ones who love Him a an eternal home with no evil or wickedness to tempt us & torment us with.

sometimes i think this is the kind of love we need to have as in loving our enemies, but not being like them.

God has always had a people who love Him

but His people do not love wickedness.
so we have the sheep & the goats.
i want to be a sheep who loves the shephard.

Quahom1 · 07-13-2005, 05:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bandit

that is how i feel too. my dad always says, God is not going to tolerate it because He does not have to tolerate it.

we had an elderly man in our church years ago. i talked with him a couple of times on this & he had so much love in him, that he did not want to see anyone perish not even the devil. but he knew according to the scriptures someone is not written in the Lambs book of life. & he cried & said, "maybe someday we wont know about it, but maybe even the devil will repent & God will forgive him & everyone will be in heaven."...& he just cried.
i think God cries over this too.

but what else is God supposed to do? He promised the ones who love Him a an eternal home with no evil or wickedness to tempt us & torment us with.

sometimes i think this is the kind of love we need to have as in loving our enemies, but not being like them.

God has always had a people who love Him

but His people not love wickedness.

I think God cries over Lucifer and His lost sons as well. But He will not change His way. He can not change His way...if He did, what would man think?

I know I would begin to question God...and we're supposed to be the apple of His eye...

v/r

Q

Bandit · 07-13-2005, 05:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quahom1

I think God cries over Lucifer and His lost sons as well. But He will not change His way. He can not change His way...if He did, what would man think?

I know I would begin to question God...and we're supposed to be the apple of His eye...

v/r

Q

right. i know what you are saying. it is written & God does not lie because it is impossible for Him to lie. His promises to those who (the apple of His eye) love Him are true & they will endure forever & forever.

Proph 1 · 07-13-2005, 05:56 AM

I used to believe things like that as well. Because I know that God is love, I used to image him crying when a soul is sent to hell. Yet, after seeing how righteous God is, I've come to know that his wrath is just as strong as his love. And, the being that sins, whether angel or man, God will say to them, "Bond him hand and foot, and cast him into the lake of fire."

God's Holy nature makes him hate sin.