What about the devil?

[China Cat Sunflower]

Selfishness is a virtue.

Yes! And evil is simply an inequitable exchange: a shortcut where profit is realized without equal value being given in return.

Chris

[Caimanson]

Hello Thomas!

[quote=Thomas;88813]
Here we might differ, because you're walking a philosophical tightrope. Would not the realisation of that unconditional love make one want to transform one's life ... to live a life that 'embodies' and actualises that unconditional love?

Or put another way - are you suggesting that 'faith in God' resolves one from the responsibility of their own life? I remember meeting a bright-eyed and joyous young girl from an EST training seminar who delighted in telling me "Isn't God wonderful! We're all ****s ... but it doesn't matter!"

When in fact it does, because either she was suggesting that God created us as ****s and the like's on us, or that she was absolved of all responsibility for her own actions...

What I am saying is that you are what you are, and you have what you have, and realise that God is bigger than your mess, and only if you make God your partner then you have any chance. Instead condemning and forcing yourself to change....

Bluntly "one does not need to perform works or uphold a virtuous lifestyle to please God, but realising that unconditional love will in turn make you love God and transform your life in tune with God's will" reads like "All I have to do is sit on my backside cos God'll turn me into a saint" which I'm sure is not what you meant, but it can be read that way... ?
The saints might make it look easy, but from what I've read, East or West, they had to work at it first.
At base level - Do you want it, and are prepared to work at it, or do you want it, but would much rather someone waved a wand, or said a magic word, and it happened, no problem no effort... (again, I'm not suggesting, i'm only trying to show how it might be misconstrued).

But is it work, or is it passion?
Most protestants believe that all believers are saints, as opposed to the catholic ideal of a saint, which quite frankly I am not interested in, fine if that's what you want, I'd rather be an "normal" person.

redemption on the other hand transforms us as holy and perfect in the spiritual plane,
Hang on ... what's wrong with the earthly plane? Why can't that be transformed too? Is it too not holy?
I mean, if you're an angel in the spiritual, wouldn't you want to the unfortunate earthly to share in your good fortune?
and here is where the potential for self-realisation lies, the difference from other religious perspectives is that this inner potential can only be made possible through Christ's redemption, but I think that is more or less a semantic difference.
Well, there's a whole arc of discussion here ... 'self-realisation' can only realise the self ... the question then is where the ontology of 'self' leads. 'Self-realisation' might simply mean fulfilling one's natural potential. In Christian terms we are called to transcend that nature ... Christianity (along with Judaism and Islam) has a radically different view of 'the self' to Eastern Traditions.

Agree completely, but though it spills to the natural, the earthly is never complete in this life.

The only risk with grace theology is lawlessness when misunderstood, but that I personally think is still better than legalism.
Yes. Some of the 2nd century gnostic schools fell foul of that, believing that they could actually do no wrong in the world, because they were above it ... a bit like some of the rich/famous/aristocratic who think they are a case apart from the rest of us ...

Talking from personal experience here: I've tasted enough destructiveness from legalism as opposed to constructiveness from freedom. Someone coming from a different place may argue the opposite and that's fine, but not for me. It is a subjective thing, a balance of polarities is ideal, but we are all different and need different things, and I suspect that this is where you and I differ big time, am I right?

The edge with the story of redemption is that it diverts the attention away from the self, it is very explicit that the key for self-realisation comes without of the self, from God.
Reformation Christianity perhaps – the idea of predestination etc., and some of the more out-there 'born again' sects whose philosophy is very ... er ... shaky ... but Catholicism (be it Orthodox, Latin or Anglican) does not, but centers on personal responsibility, accountability and grace – the activity of the Holy Spirit.
(You can't have a doctrine of accountability without a doctrine of the self.)
I would address it differently - the key is that we realise ourselves in God, not in ourselves ... 'in him we live and move and have our being' not 'in us He lives and moves and has His being' ... sometimes we're too full of our own living and moving and being to let anyone else in ... be it God or be it our neighbour ... (there's no room for love).

I cannot see the difference, I agree with what you say, is it wording? The work of the Holy Spirit.

Otherwise the logical conclusion is that satan the adversarial god does exist and is in equal terms with God.
Which is why theology never opposes God and the Devil – the devil is a fallen angel ...

If he is just a mere angel, why is he such a big deal then?

Are you sure you're not a Catholic ... ?

Hell no Thomas!
Not even sure I am christian, or anything anymore.
The catholic church is such a universe in itself anyway....

[Caimanson]

Originally Posted by wil

What's not to like?

How selfish are you? Say you want for yourself the best education?? What are you going to do with it? In the end you'll benefit everyone you encounter.

Let's say your really selfish and decide to accumulate massive wealth. Well to do that you'll probably have to start a business, or buy one and expand it, either way employ quite a few people and most who accumulate give away thousands time more than everyone else...what's not to like.

How selfish can you be? Want to be alone in the middle of thousand of acres of forest....look what you just preserved for your lifetime...and maybe beyond if you are really selfish and put it into a trust...

Selfishness is a virtue.

Wil, not sure where are you going with this. To me it seems too idealistic and not pure selfishness anyway.
If what you mean is to channel natural selfishness for good purposes, then I sort of agree.
But when I think of the nasty side of human nature, then I shiver and shake.

[Thomas]

Hi Caiman:
Hi Caimanson -

What I am saying is that you are what you are, and you have what you have, and realise that God is bigger than your mess, and only if you make God your partner then you have any chance ...

... I cannot see the difference, I agree with what you say, is it wording? The work of the Holy Spirit.

I think the essential difference is that, Grace Theology in the Catholic Tradition calls first that man freely and of his own volition chooses to co-operate with God – it is a partnership (with man very much the junior partner) and both parties go forward honouring the deal: the Covenant – and that once accepted, man remains free and continues of his own volition ... this opens the possibility of error and failure – man's free will is not bypassed, suspended or over-written, as it were.

Thomas

[17th Angel]

I have much virtue then.....