What about the people that hadn't heard - could they have lived a fulfiling live?

[earl]

Always been a big fan of Huston Smith, that paragon of cooparative religious scholarship. He finds Divine inspiration in all the world's religions and personally uses practices from a variety of them though mainly is Christian in outlook. In fact he just published his personal view of Christianity, "The Soul of Christianity," in which he address his view on some central Christian tenets and why he loves that religion. But as one who believed all religions are divinely inspired his view is not that if one did not accept Jesus as lord one would perish, but rather just that the religion/spirituality embodied in Jesus/Christianity introduced a very valuable, unique message among humanity of a positive nature. But when I look at doctrines related to what "salvation" means and the after-life, hell, damnation, etc. I tend to rather simplistically look at it anthrpomorphically though I do tend to think there's a problem whenever we view God through that lense. But anyway, to me the parable that gets at the heart of this is the parable of the prodigal son. His father loved him whether he strayed or stayed and certainly rejoiced when he returned. But it seems that story depicted the father as concerned for the lifestyle the son was leading while away from home. So, it seems that parable was more about behavioral/moral choices than affiliation. Wonder what the tone of that parable would have been like if it portrayed the prodigal son as never returning home yet living a full, loving life on the road somewhere If we wish to view God anthropomorphically in human terms we should envision God as aBeing who is more evolved in love/ethic than humanity in general and reasoning from this perspective suggests this: all parents (think they know) and wish the best for one's off-spring, offering (ideally) unconditional love and guidance throught their journey. We welcome them home with open arms, we wish them well wherever they may be. But any parent who would condemn their off-spring to eternal damnation if he/she did not embrace the exact view of the parent would rightfully be seen as a "jealous" "God," one who is sadistically narcissistic. I do believe Jesus was sent by God to preach a Love that enables humanity to evolve beyond that narcissism. Would whoever/whatever sent him be any less? Take care, Earl

[johnp.]

Hello Q.

Hence, by your view a father and son are destined to be at each others' throats, for life.

I don't understand your remark.

Second your view automatically assumes God has picked his choice and the rest are fodder.

I made no assumption but quoted scripture. Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

John 6:65 He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him."
He does not enable everyman does He? Only the elect.

However the term "chosen" is not that God chooses, but that man chooses to come to the Lord. Few choose to come to God.

Eph 1:4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will...

Scripture has it that He chose us we did not choose Him.

Few choose to come to God.

Scripture has it that God has mercy on who He wants and condemns the rest before they do right or wrong. Romans 9:10-13.

Third, doctrines are not bible, they are man made edicts.

Disparaging doctrine is of little value. Titus 2:1 You must teach what is in accord with sound doctrine. A command I obey.

Doctrines are subject to a "litmus" test.

The bible alone.

Not many pass with the right color.

Only one.

john.

[Arizona]

Everyone does hear. His Spirit was poured out on all flesh. Like a quarantine being lifted. His Spirit speaks to all flesh now. We understand spiritual matters much more clearly then before. Those who receive goodness and love and kindness have received Him. By their fruits you will know them. Not by mere speach or proclamations of belief but by thier nature or fruits. Its not about mere knowledge. Its about wisdom that manifests His nature in our being. Having knowledge of doctrines or history is not the fruit.

[johnp.]

Everyone does hear. His Spirit was poured out on all flesh. Like a quarantine being lifted.

It falls over on it's own doesn't it Arizona? If a quarantine has been lifted what of those before the quarantine had been lifted?
1 Cor 2:14 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Some are without the Spirit. But if the Spirit is poured out on all men why did He hide the tree of life? Why does He blind the eyes and stop up ears? Why does He harden hearts if He has poured out His Spirit on all men?

Disparaging knowledge and doctrine is unscriptural Arizona. Titus 2:1 You must teach what is in accord with sound doctrine.

Its not about mere knowledge. Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, they have no light of dawn.
Knowledge is our benchmark. All things must be viewed through scripture. Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true. Acts 17:11.

By their fruits you will know them.

Are you saying that a nice person who has never heard of Christ will be saved?

john.

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by Arizona

Everyone does hear. His Spirit was poured out on all flesh. Like a quarantine being lifted. His Spirit speaks to all flesh now. We understand spiritual matters much more clearly then before. Those who receive goodness and love and kindness have received Him. By their fruits you will know them. Not by mere speach or proclamations of belief but by thier nature or fruits. Its not about mere knowledge. Its about wisdom that manifests His nature in our being. Having knowledge of doctrines or history is not the fruit.

i agree with this to a point & i agree doctrine & history is not the fruit & i believe it is possible to have doctrine with no fruit. Paul told us if we understand all mysteries & have not love...love is one of the fruits.
now i cant say everyone is hearing, though everyone has the ability to hear if they choose to hear & faith cometh by hearing & hearing by the Word of God-but would hope that those who have an ear (a spiritual ear) are hearing.

& i agree, mere proclamations of belief is not the fruit, but it is a start. & i agree a quarantine was lifted when Jesus reconciled all things to God, to himself & to man & Jesus is the mediator between God & man . i also agree it is not mere knowledge that saves us but faith in the blood of Jesus that saves us.
Paul says I will show you my faith by my works & James says faith without works is dead.
so, i am seeing a package deal & a very special, one of a kind package indeed
what do you think, Arizona?

[Thomas]

My argument, as a Catholic, with the doctrines of the Reformation (Protestantism, Church of England...) is that they limit the freedom of God to act, confining him to salvivic action only within His church - but define the church as the physical body which they represent.

The Catholic notion of Church - or more rightly of the original Greek 'ekklesia' or 'people called forth' - is that the physical Church is the witness and Presence of God in the world (the Deposit of Faith) - without the Church there would be a calling, but no Presence - whilst at the same time God can act as He wills (the spirit bloweth where it listeth) and as he sees fit.

We know this because Christ himself spoke of salvation in the same terms to Jew and Gentile alike - notably the Samaritan woman at the well, or the Centurian who's daughter was ill; that his mission to the apostles was to the world, not just the Jews, and that Paul was called as the Apostle to the Gentiles ... so although the Old Testament is a Covenant between God and the Jews; the New Testament is a Covenant between God and man as a creature made in the image and likeness.

The conversion of Cornelius in Acts states just this - that the Holy Spirit descended upon Cornelius and his kin PRIOR to their reception into the Church.

It was Clement of Alexandria who spoke of 'Christians before Christ' and it was Newman, the famous convert from the Church of England, who spoke of 'anonymous Christians'.

The latter term is the most telling, whilst outwardly 'anonymous Christians' implies those who respond to the call of God but have no knowledge of His church, the term also signifiers the nature of the relationship with Jesus - the Saviour is no less present in, with and to them as he is to the Christian, but the Christian knows His name and his story, as it were, whilst to the anonymous the first 'anonymity' is that of the Divine Presence in the soul.

Thomas

[TexLittlefield]

Originally Posted by Bandit

.......
now i cant say everyone is hearing, though everyone has the ability to hear if they choose to hear & faith cometh by hearing & hearing by the Word of God-but would hope that those who have an ear (a spiritual ear) are hearing.
.........
Paul says I will show you my faith by my works & James says faith without works is dead.

>>>Paul says I will show you my faith by my works<<<<

But how would he show HIS (Christ's) faith ?

What "saves" ?

YOUR faith in Christ ?

or Christ's faith , which you possess, because he gave it [faith] to you ?


>>>>everyone has the ability to hear if they choose to hear<<<<<

"everyone" ?

1Corinthians 1:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God.......
niether can he know them,because they are spiritually discerned.

Seems "no one" can , unless the ability is "given"

So who is this "ability" given to ? Everyone?

[wil]

My argument, as a Catholic, with the doctrines of the Reformation (Protestantism, Church of England...) is that they limit the freedom of God to act, confining him to salvivic action only within His church - but define the church as the physical body which they represent.

That may the Catholic viewpoint, but that does not mean that it is the Protestant viewpoint or God's.

I'm wondering how anyone can 'limit' God?

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by TexLittlefield

>>>Paul says I will show you my faith by my works<<<<

But how would he show HIS (Christ's) faith ?

What "saves" ?

YOUR faith in Christ ?

or Christ's faith , which you possess, because he gave it [faith] to you ?


>>>>everyone has the ability to hear if they choose to hear<<<<<

"everyone" ?

1Corinthians 1:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God.......
niether can he know them,because they are spiritually discerned.

Seems "no one" can , unless the ability is "given"

So who is this "ability" given to ? Everyone?

Hi TexLittlefield

as far as i can see, faith is an individual ability & each person has it, not everyone knows how to activate it. when it is activated, it does not do nothing.
um, you decide for yourself what you should believe & what you should do.
i am going to keep my own ducks in order the best i can & not worry about everyone elses ducks, unless they ask me for help.

faith cometh by hearing & hearing by the Word of God-

i have already said what i feel about it, for me.
peace unto you

[TexLittlefield]

Originally Posted by Bandit

as far as i can see, faith is an individual ability & each person has it, not everyone knows how to activate it.....

So whose "fault" is it if they "don't know how to 'activate' " ?

Originally Posted by Bandit

um, you decide for yourself what you should believe & what you should do.

"decide for yourself"

would that include infants , for example ?

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by TexLittlefield

So whose "fault" is it if they "don't know how to 'activate' " ?



"decide for yourself"

would that include infants , for example ?

i would say their own fault because they choose not to hear the Word & wander off into other things. children & infants learn to have faith in their parents & dont even realize it. i dont think anyone can expect a child to know what that is, because i did not know what faith is until much later in life yet i was willing to hear the scriptures all of my life. i believe there is an age of accountability.

so it is easy to see why Jesus taught child like faith in God, the faith of a mustard seed etc.

i dont know what your beliefs are but i know there are over 400 scriptures in the bible on faith & that tells me how important it is & i believe every one of those scriptures. Christianity is one of the few (maybe only) beliefs that i know who seriously teaches faith, & that is faith in Jesus Christ.

is that what you want to hear?
what do you think?

[TexLittlefield]

Originally Posted by Bandit

i would say their own fault because they choose not to hear the Word & wander off into other things.

That would mean "we" did did a good thing when we 'heard'....
and "they" didn't. Or ,in other words, "we" deserve salvation ..and "they"
don't. "We' DID the 'good deed' {we heard}... and "they" didn't;
not deserveing of salvation.
Correct ?

Originally Posted by Bandit

.....because i did not know what faith is until much later in life yet i was willing to hear the scriptures all of my life.

Exactly

It is not necessary to 'know' what faith is...at any time in your life.....
if you have received it as a gift.
Understanding doesn't save.....faith does.

Which begs the question...how did that faith get there ?

If someone didn't understand enough to ask for it.

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by TexLittlefield

They would mean "we" did did a good thing when we 'heard'....
and "they" didn't. Or ,in other words, "we" deserve salvation ..and "they"
don't. "We' DID the 'good deed' {we heard}... and "they" didn't;
not deserveing of salvation.
Correct ?.

that sounds about right to me. so many people just flat out reject & exclude Jesus & the blood of Jesus as a reality. at the same time i think there are millions of people (native american indians) for example, who lived for hundreds of years not knowing about Jesus & not even knowing there was a bible, who believed in God, & Jesus was reaching out to them also, they just did not realize it or understand the way we do today. there is no reason as far as i am concerned that they too will be saved.
i know God is a merciful loving God.

Faith is not just about salvation. We walk by faith & not by sight. We learn to walk in the spirit through faith.
there is a real relationship with God when we do this. you know?

Originally Posted by TexLittlefield

Exactly

It is not necessary to 'know' what faith is...at any time in your life.....
if you have received it as a gift.
Understanding doesn't save.....faith does.

Which begs the question...how did that faith get there ?

If someone didn't understand enough to ask for it.

i think it is always there people just dont know how it works. i must say if it was not for the scriptures, i would not know what faith in God is either. the Word of God is a true establishment & faith builder & i think prayer helps a lot too.

how did faith get there?

faith cometh by hearing & hearing by the Word of God.
NOW Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

my answer is not going to change

so faith is a real thing & it has substance, but i think the key here is having faith NOW. not tomorrow but right now & that takes time to learn. AND having that faith in God, not just anything or anyone, because we are people & we can fail, but God cannot fail.
Faith in God can be excercised & when we do it, the faith grows bigger & stronger like a mustard bush.
hope that all makes sense.

[Pico]

Originally Posted by Herriot

Yes, but doesn't answer my question - what about the people that haven't heard???

My mom is probably the churchiest person I know, and she goes to Bible studies and stuff like that.

She told me that after everyone dies; that since God wants everyone to be with him; Jesus will come to then and give them one last chance to accept him, or to fall forever.

I dunno where in the Bible it talks about that, but she's studied it--probably pretty extensively--I haven't.

[Nattering Nabob]

So what about the people that hadn't heard?

Romans Ch. 2

12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) 16This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.