what convinced you your faith is the truth? - Page 6

Postmaster · 09-06-2006, 11:28 AM

Quote:

Miracles transcend the everyday and the perceived regular rules of nature.

What are the regular rules of nature?

What i find odd is Bahá'u'lláh's son died while praying he fell through the celling, Bahá'u'lláh said God took him as a sacrifice? Now when Mohammed's son died and a lunar eclipse happened on that very day, Mohammed explained why the eclipse happened in a pretty logical view and wasn't due to his son dieing. If I'm not mistaken on this.

"An eclipse is a phenomenon of nature. It is foolish to attribute such things to the death or birth of a human being." " - Mohammed

Whereas it seems Bahá'u'lláh could only justify it with pagan thoughts consideing how important reasoning is in the Baha'i faith.

And if it was a friend of Christ's that died he would bring him back from the dead! Take for instance Saint Lazerus who's tomb is in my hometown in Cyprus.

Everyones regular rules of nature are different, including the animals.

arthra · 09-06-2006, 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Postmaster

What are the regular rules of nature?

What i find odd is Bahá'u'lláh's son died while praying he fell through the celling, Bahá'u'lláh said God took him as a sacrifice? Now when Mohammed's son died and a lunar eclipse happened on that very day, Mohammed explained why the eclipse happened in a pretty logical view and wasn't due to his son dieing. If I'm not mistaken on this.

"An eclipse is a phenomenon of nature. It is foolish to attribute such things to the death or birth of a human being." " - Mohammed

Whereas it seems Bahá'u'lláh could only justify it with pagan thoughts consideing how important reasoning is in the Baha'i faith.

And if it was a friend of Christ's that died he would bring him back from the dead! Take for instance Saint Lazerus who's tomb is in my hometown in Cyprus.

Everyones regular rules of nature are different, including the animals.

I'm unsure what it is you would like to discuss my friend...

If it is about the death of Mirza Mihdi in Akka I will be happy to share with you what happened.

While on pilgrimage some years ago in 1975 I was near the very place where Mirza Mihdi passed away and it was a very humbling and powerful experience for me personally... as in a way you will see his sacrifice allowed us to be there as pilgrims.

I will recount for you though what I know about it.

You may be aware that Baha'u'llah was exiled to the prison fortress of Akka which was a Turkish Penal Colony around August 1868 by the Sultan of the Ottoman Empire. The family of Baha'u'llah and a some followers were with Him including His son Mirza Mihdi, the Purest Branch. The conditions of the Akka Prison were by today's standards unimaginable

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:P...-bahaullah.jpg

... and to transcend these circumstances it was a normal practise for prisoners to go onto the roof for fresh air in the evenings.

On June 22nd 1870 Mirza Mihdi was chanting verses from the Qasidiy-i-Varqaiyyih revealed by Baha'u'llah and while doing so fell through a sky light to the floor of the prison which was a fall of maybe forty feet or so. He landed on a crate which also complicated his injuries. Baha'u'llah came to his side and asked Mirza Mihdi whether he wished to live.

Baha'u'llah assured Mirza Mihdi that if it was his wish God would enable him to recover and grant him good health.

But the Purest Branch begged Baha'u'llah to accept His life as a ransom for the opening of the gates of the prison to pilgrims and that his life be a ransom for the many who had been unable to attain His presence.

Baha'u'llah accepted His son's sacrifice. Mirza Mihdi died from his injuries on June 23, 1870. His remains are now housed in a modest but beautiful Shrine on Mount Carmel.

"It is not possible for anyone to visualize the measure of humility and self effacemnet and the intensity of devotion and meekness which the Purest Branch evinced in his life."

For me it was the most humbling experience of my pilgrimage and my life to visit the site of Mirza Mihdi's sacrifice.

- Art

Postmaster · 09-06-2006, 11:58 PM

hmm i see... thanks for that.

Seeker_of_truth · 11-09-2006, 03:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Postmaster

Yeah but did all prophets suffer such torture as Christ? Also did other prophets know they were divine from birth? Angels visited his parents from birth.

Also did other prophets have the same relationship to God as Christ did? Did they perform such miracles? Did they share the same love as Christ?

Some Hebrew prophesises claimed the messiah was already existing in heaven before he would be revealed on earth. Where is Christ's grave? and where is Baha'u'llah's?

Yes all prophets suffered so their cause could live on.
No Jesus was not the only virgin birth, if i am not mistaken Lord Zoroaster was also born of a virgin

arthra · 11-09-2006, 11:23 AM

Thanks for your post! and welcome to Comparative Religion forum! I think it would be interesting if you could follow up on that idea and see from sources if Zoroaster was born of a virgin... He apparently had brothers. I recall from reading that when His father died his brothers got most all the material inheritance and Zoroaster inherited his father's prayer girdle which was all He wanted anyway.

- Art

Popeyesays · 11-09-2006, 08:40 PM

Identifications are made and the story is detailed in Dawnbreakers, I'll just summarize.

When Baha`u'llah was confined to Baghadad (and before He advanced His Own claim to Revelation) a council of Mullahs opposed to the Babi's in general issued a challenge to Baha`u'llah to produce a miracle for their education. They sent a junior of their council to Baghdad to make the request of Baha`u'llah. The messenger, once in the presence of Baha`u'llah found himself to be very meek and apologetic for the council's arrogance and Baha`u'llah received him kindly. Baha`iu'llah granted the request, He made only two stipulations: First that the council should agree on the miracle that they requested; and second, that once the miracle was produced the council should publicly declare their belief in the message of the Bab and become faithful Babi's.

The messenger returned to Najaf and delivered Baha`u'llah's reply. The council spent weeks in agitated discussion, the result was that they never replied to Baha`u'llah because they feared the outcome if He might actually produce such a miracle and they were forced to comply with the agreement to accept formally and publically the Revelation of the Bab.

The messenger became so disgusted with the attitude and behavior of the council that he broke his alignment with those assembled Mullahs, and travelled to Baghdad to embrace the Babi faith.

In my opinion, Baha`u'llah provided the miracle clearly and without equivocation.

Other opinions may vary. That is the problem with miracles in general.

Regards,
Scott

Popeyesays · 11-09-2006, 09:10 PM

I don't know if Imran is still participating or not, so I'm not sure if I should address him or not. So I am going to address myself to the opriginal topic (How I know that the baha`i Faith is true) and to his questions which SEEm to attempt to undermine the authority of the Bab as The Returned Twelfth Imam.

First the Bab IS the returned 12th Imam just as John the Baptist was Elijah returned. John denied it, Jesus affirmed it. John made clear that John's authority ended at the feet of Jesus Christ. The Bab made sure to affirm over and over that He Whom God Shall Make Manifest had the authority to anull the Bab's Book with but a single word. Baha`i's believe that Baha`u'llah is clearly He WHom God Shall Make Manifest.

Once Baha`i's accept that the Bab was a Manifestation and that Baha`u'llah was the Manifestation of God with the power to anull the Bab's Revelation with but a single word, the original question of this topic is clearly answered.

The only "authoritative" interpretation of the Baha'i sacred texts (including the works of the Bab) is from the utterances and writings of Abdu'l Baha and Shoghi Effendi. Other than what those two empowered individuals say, their is no tafseer in the Baha`i Faith. It does no good at all to look for such tafseer where it does not exist.

The versions of the Bab's Writings which are NOT in the hands of the Baha`i Archives are suspect of forgery, distortion and outright falsification by those who hated the faith from its inception.

Therefore the documents represented in such websites as Imran's are not authentic at all, and have no authority whatsoever.

Does that sufficiently handle the issues?

Regards,
Scott

Popeyesays · 11-09-2006, 09:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Postmaster

What are the regular rules of nature?

What i find odd is Bahá'u'lláh's son died while praying he fell through the celling, Bahá'u'lláh said God took him as a sacrifice? Now when Mohammed's son died and a lunar eclipse happened on that very day, Mohammed explained why the eclipse happened in a pretty logical view and wasn't due to his son dieing. If I'm not mistaken on this.

"An eclipse is a phenomenon of nature. It is foolish to attribute such things to the death or birth of a human being." " - Mohammed

Whereas it seems Bahá'u'lláh could only justify it with pagan thoughts consideing how important reasoning is in the Baha'i faith.

And if it was a friend of Christ's that died he would bring him back from the dead! Take for instance Saint Lazerus who's tomb is in my hometown in Cyprus.

Everyones regular rules of nature are different, including the animals.

Yes, but was the darkness following the deaths of Jesus Christ or the Bab (July 9th, 1850 in Tabriz in Persia) the result of an eclipse?

I don't think so. The darkness after Christ's expiration on the cross cannot be confirmed to date, time and exact place (we do not know where Golgotha really was).

The events on that day in Tabriz are historically recorded as to time, place and location and there was no eclipse at that time, though the darkness and windstorm is clearly authenticated in the narratives of many observers.

Regards,
Scott

Seeker_of_truth · 11-10-2006, 02:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by imranshaykh

I am not, I repeat, am not antagonistic to the Bahai Faith. Once again, you have dragged my web site into this discussion.

The Bahais interpret the Quran whatever way they feel best. Most of the times, I receive an interpretation of the Quran, which is not even available in Bahai books - it is a figment of some Bahai's imagination. To an average Muslim, this constitutes an attack on Islam. You are using the Quran itself to make a point which has no standing in Islam. I have not taken any offence to that. Everytime a point is made in this fashion, I respectfully seek the references for the same. And everytime I do that, my web site is dragged into the discussion. I see no logic for that.

If you wish to have the version of Tafseere' Surah Kausar, please let me know I have it in PDF format from the h-net.com web site. It is in Arabic.

So all in all,

May I please know if there is an official version of Tafseere' Kauthar, Sahifae Adaliyah, Dalaaelus Sabah, Qayyamul Asma of the Bab. If not, can we see an injunction from the UHJ or any authority that these books should not be read. In that case, one can safely skip these books in favour of others.

Also, may I know which prophecies of the 12th Imam did the Bab fulfill?

Regards
Imran

Baha'is believe that Baha'u'llah is the return of Christ, Muhammad etc. ALL books were sealed until judgment day. Baha'u'llah had the power and authority to interpret and explain versus of all sacred sripture. I asure you Baha'is on these boards are not pulling from their butt, but speaking with Baha'u'llah's interpretations in mind.

Popeyesays · 11-10-2006, 03:49 AM

If Jesus is to be accepted as "God in the Flesh" simply because He had no genetic father, then why should not Adam be even more revered as 'God in the Flesh', since He had neither genetic father nor genetic mother?

Regards,
Scott

inhumility · 11-10-2006, 06:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Postmaster

Some Hebrew prophesises claimed the messiah was already existing in heaven before he would be revealed on earth. Where is Christ's grave? and where is Baha'u'llah's?

Well sir
I would guide you to the grave of ChristJesus or YeshuaMessiahMoshiach or IssaMasih s/o MaryamMeriumMary.It is located in Mohallah Khanyar, Sirinagar, Kashmir, India. The local people remember by his name as Yuz Asaf, which seems a bit closer in sound to Yeshua than Jesus is from Yeshua. Please access: Al Islam - Jesus in India
Or Yuz Asaf - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Thanks
I am an Ahmadi - a faith in Islam

Popeyesays · 11-10-2006, 01:23 PM

"Originally Posted by Postmaster

Some Hebrew prophesises claimed the messiah was already existing in heaven before he would be revealed on earth. Where is Christ's grave? and where is Baha'u'llah's?"

There is only ONE Manifestation of God in the spiritual sense, each time He comes to earth it is the same "Word Made Flesh" but in different flesh--as Baha`i's are guided to view it.

Therefore the grave of Christ Jesus is in Baji, it is in Medina, it is where ever the flesh was laid to rest.

The flesh is dust, the Spirit is eternal.

Yes, the Spirit was with God from the instant of Creation, it was still there even though Jesus walked the earth and embodied the Spirit at the same time. It remains there alwys, even when it is embodied upon the earth.

Regards,
Scott

arthra · 11-10-2006, 04:55 PM

I thought I would post this as a point of information as Inhumility wrote above a comment directed at postmaster as follows:

Well sir
I would guide you to the grave of ChristJesus or YeshuaMessiahMoshiach or IssaMasih s/o MaryamMeriumMary.It is located in Mohallah Khanyar, Sirinagar, Kashmir, India. The local people remember by his name as Yuz Asaf, which seems a bit closer in sound to Yeshua than Jesus is from Yeshua. Please access: Al Islam - Jesus in India
Or Yuz Asaf - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Thanks
I am an Ahmadi - a faith in Islam
____________________

The Baha'i view is that Jesus was crucified.... that His body disappeared:

"For the body of Christ was crucified and vanished, but the Spirit of Christ is always pouring upon the contingent world, and is manifest before the insight of the people of assurance."

"Tablets of Abdul-Baha Abbas", Vol. 1 (Chicago: Bahá'í Publishing Society), p. 193-194

So it is mostly an Ahmadi belief that Jesus was buried in Kashmir and not a Baha'i belief.

- Art

BruceDLimber · 11-11-2006, 04:48 PM

Hi!

Quote:

Originally Posted by paul

Moses is perceived as a prohet isn't he?

but Moses is not considered completely perfect is he?

The term we use for Moses, Jesus, Baha'u'llah, and other such individuals is Divine Messenger, or Manifestation of God (which is not to say They're God Himself).

And in the Bahai' view, ALL such Divine Messengers are perfect, Moses included!

This is distinct from prophets, who are ordinary humans like the rest of us....

Regards,

Bruce

imranshaykh · 11-23-2006, 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Popeyesays

I don't know if Imran is still participating or not, so I'm not sure if I should address him or not. So I am going to address myself to the opriginal topic (How I know that the baha`i Faith is true) and to his questions which SEEm to attempt to undermine the authority of the Bab as The Returned Twelfth Imam.

First the Bab IS the returned 12th Imam just as John the Baptist was Elijah returned. John denied it, Jesus affirmed it. John made clear that John's authority ended at the feet of Jesus Christ. The Bab made sure to affirm over and over that He Whom God Shall Make Manifest had the authority to anull the Bab's Book with but a single word. Baha`i's believe that Baha`u'llah is clearly He WHom God Shall Make Manifest.

Once Baha`i's accept that the Bab was a Manifestation and that Baha`u'llah was the Manifestation of God with the power to anull the Bab's Revelation with but a single word, the original question of this topic is clearly answered.

The only "authoritative" interpretation of the Baha'i sacred texts (including the works of the Bab) is from the utterances and writings of Abdu'l Baha and Shoghi Effendi. Other than what those two empowered individuals say, their is no tafseer in the Baha`i Faith. It does no good at all to look for such tafseer where it does not exist.

The versions of the Bab's Writings which are NOT in the hands of the Baha`i Archives are suspect of forgery, distortion and outright falsification by those who hated the faith from its inception.

Therefore the documents represented in such websites as Imran's are not authentic at all, and have no authority whatsoever.

Does that sufficiently handle the issues?

Regards,
Scott

Hi Scott:

We have no other reference from the Bab about "Whom Allah will Manifest" except that he said the words that "Whom Allah will Manifest" will well manifest himself. No other statement which is found in "official" Bahai versions of the Bab. If one reads the other books of the Bab, one may be inclined to think that the Bab was referring to some other person - maybe the 12th Imam whom he refers to by name and titles in tafseere' surah kausar.

Unfortunately, the Bahais have found a convenient way to bypass the issue. They simply say that all version of Bab's writings which are not in Bahai archives are false. So tell us which of bab's books are in the Bahai archives and we will be happy to read them and make our point.

The Faith is not more than 200 years old and you want to tell me that in an age when books were written and printed, ALL of the Bab's works were lost? ALL of them??!

If the books were forgeries, how did the Bahais accept only some quotations from them and put them in Selected Writings of the Bab? Why was the entire book not scrapped. Why do we have one quotation from Dalaelus Sabah which is accepted and the other rejected?

We have the Bab's acceptance of Mohammed Ibnil Hasan in at least 4 books in different words and titles. Is that why these books are rejected?

And once again, you have chosen to talk about my favourite topic - Bab as the 12th Imam. Which prophecies of the 12th Imam did the Bab fulfill? Read the article on my web site - The Bab v/s the Mahdi. Not one prophecy is fulfilled. Not one.

Regards
Imran