What do we know about God?

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by presser_kun

Thank you. I value your thoughts and opinions quite a bit.

press

That's nice of you to say, but really there is nothing I could ever share with you that would be of greater value than your own search.

One analogy I like, and I think I've said it before in this forum, is that faith and reason move together as in a dance when it comes to knowing God. To us it will seem to be a point when we make a conscious choice to believe in God, to have faith, but in reality it is the Spirit moving us when we make that decision. The Spirit may be taking the lead, but if our will does not move, no one dances.

So, from my experience, we simply choose to believe, we choose to dance. We can rationalize it out in various ways to back up that choice, but one way or another you decide that God Is. And you decide to live your life as if you believe God Is, which means you decide to live your life in love and trust. Not that 'magical' things are going to happen to you for believing, nor that you are going to gain some kind of special protection or favors and place in heaven. I frankly don't think it works that way. But, deciding to live your life in love and trust and faith will change you, and this is what I think salvation is, or at least part of it.

There is a Baha'i saying, and I've seen the same thought reflected in the Bible, in the Pslams, but I don't recall off-hand where, and it captures perfectly the dance of faith and our relationship with God:

O Son of Being! Love Me that I may lovest Thee. If thou lovest Me not, My love can in no wise reach thee. Know this, O servant.

To know God is to love God. To love God is to open ourselves to His Love and become a channel for His love into the world. If you believe this it will change your life.

best wishes,
lunamoth

[mee]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

We "know" we are made in His image and likeness. We "know" there is nothing we can not accomplish (though not always for the better). We "know" we were originally not supposed to die, then our lives were limited to 900 years, then 120 years, then 70 years, due to our corruptness.

I say "know" because that is what scripture says, and not secular historical evidence...

Now, we know, the human body is designed to last at least 120 years (in a perfect environment), that part is based on scientific evidence. We know that our genes have "trigger" that trips after a certain time, that tells our body to stop regenerating at the youthful pace we started with. We believe it is nature's way for making room for the next generation.

Finally, we know we are a highly complex composite of organisms combined to support us, or our essense. And we still can't explain satisfactorily through science why or how we developed to this state and level.

The explaination of God is not detailed enough, and the explaination of Science is not yet sufficient.

Either way we are still dealing with mysteries...

my thoughts

v/r

Q

i dont think the bible tells us in genesis that 120 years is mans age limit , it is telling noah that there will be 120 years more untill the flood , but i do agree that the bible tells us that 70 or 80 years is about it , (psalm 90;10)at the momment that is.

[Dondi]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

Not that 'magical' things are going to happen to you for believing, nor that you are going to gain some kind of special protection or favors and place in heaven. I frankly don't think it works that way. But, deciding to live your life in love and trust and faith will change you, and this is what I think salvation is, or at least part of it.

There is a Baha'i saying, and I've seen the same thought reflected in the Bible, in the Pslams, but I don't recall off-hand where, and it captures perfectly the dance of faith and our relationship with God:

O Son of Being! Love Me that I may lovest Thee. If thou lovest Me not, My love can in no wise reach thee. Know this, O servant.

To know God is to love God. To love God is to open ourselves to His Love and become a channel for His love into the world. If you believe this it will change your life.

I have to disagree with you somewhat on this one, lunamoth. It is the very trust and belief in God that will bring the Love of God into your life. Believing in God does have reward. I've seen too many amazing things happen in my life and the lives of other that seem too coincidental to believe they are products of chance. I'm not talking about parting seas or hands restored, but God shows up in the little things.

For example: I've been praying for a raise on my job for 2 1/2 years now, since I started working there. One Sunday a couple of weeks ago, there was a guest preacher at our church who talked about keeping a prayer journal and how some wonderful things happened to him as a result. So I decided to start a prayer journal myself and naturally one of the things I included in it was my prayer for that raise.

Four days after I started the journal, guess what? Yep, I got that raise.

Maybe it's not a full blown miracle, but I think that God does hear us and knows what we need. I'm no one special, I'm not perfect by any means, and I don't claim to have the corner on God (indeed, I think He is getting the corner on me). But I trust God all the time for my needs (and wants, though like a wise father, sometimes the answer is no).

Lunamoth, I absolutely agree on the last part, about God's Love. It is this Love that will bring us to the realization that God Is. It is God's Love that will save us, not just from some kind of actual hell, but the hell that we make for ourselves in this world. It is God's Love that will teach us to love others as He Loves us. Surely, this is the ultimate goal for His creation, to learn to love with a Love that is not ours. I've learned to love people who I would NEVER thought I could love, only because God gave me the strength and means to forgive them and love them as they are. That is the greatest challenge for me, because all the hurt I've experienced in the past from certain individuals had been damaging to my soul. And the bitterness and anger I had for these people had eaten me up inside. But, you see, God's Love as enabled me to release that anger and bitterness and allowed me to forgive those who hurt me and seek forgiveness from those I have hurt. That's the "magical thing" if I ever heard one.

[presser_kun]

Originally Posted by Dondi

I've seen too many amazing things happen in my life and the lives of other that seem too coincidental to believe they are products of chance. <snip>

For example: I've been praying for a raise on my job for 2 1/2 years now, since I started working there. One Sunday a couple of weeks ago, there was a guest preacher at our church who talked about keeping a prayer journal and how some wonderful things happened to him as a result. So I decided to start a prayer journal myself and naturally one of the things I included in it was my prayer for that raise.

Four days after I started the journal, guess what? Yep, I got that raise.

Is it possible that you got the raise because of hard work or good performance?

If God gave you the raise because you started keeping the journal, will he withhold good things if you stop?

This sounds like superstition to me.

I know this seems harsh. As a matter of fact, I used to think the same way you do, Dondi.

You can easily reply that every miracle can be explained in rational terms of some sort, but that it's the way you see the event that matters.

This seems like a refusal to face the facts to me.

If God gave you a raise because you started keeping the journal, then if you get a parking space close to the front of the shopping mall, is that God's doing? How about the fact that you narrowly avoided a heart attack because God led you to choose one breakfast cereal over another, and that was the event that started you on the new path toward health?

Where do you stop? At what point is it superstition instead of faith?

Again, sorry to be harsh. I only want to know the truth. In fact, I don't think it's wrong to say (and I do say in my own life) that truth is more important than anything else. Even more important than any belief I hold. Even belief in God.

Well, those are my thoughts. I'll be interested to see your response.

peace,

press

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by Dondi

I have to disagree with you somewhat on this one, lunamoth. It is the very trust and belief in God that will bring the Love of God into your life. Believing in God does have reward. I've seen too many amazing things happen in my life and the lives of other that seem too coincidental to believe they are products of chance. I'm not talking about parting seas or hands restored, but God shows up in the little things.

For example: I've been praying for a raise on my job for 2 1/2 years now, since I started working there. One Sunday a couple of weeks ago, there was a guest preacher at our church who talked about keeping a prayer journal and how some wonderful things happened to him as a result. So I decided to start a prayer journal myself and naturally one of the things I included in it was my prayer for that raise.

Four days after I started the journal, guess what? Yep, I got that raise.

Maybe it's not a full blown miracle, but I think that God does hear us and knows what we need. I'm no one special, I'm not perfect by any means, and I don't claim to have the corner on God (indeed, I think He is getting the corner on me). But I trust God all the time for my needs (and wants, though like a wise father, sometimes the answer is no).

Lunamoth, I absolutely agree on the last part, about God's Love. It is this Love that will bring us to the realization that God Is. It is God's Love that will save us, not just from some kind of actual hell, but the hell that we make for ourselves in this world. It is God's Love that will teach us to love others as He Loves us. Surely, this is the ultimate goal for His creation, to learn to love with a Love that is not ours. I've learned to love people who I would NEVER thought I could love, only because God gave me the strength and means to forgive them and love them as they are. That is the greatest challenge for me, because all the hurt I've experienced in the past from certain individuals had been damaging to my soul. And the bitterness and anger I had for these people had eaten me up inside. But, you see, God's Love as enabled me to release that anger and bitterness and allowed me to forgive those who hurt me and seek forgiveness from those I have hurt. That's the "magical thing" if I ever heard one.

Dondi, I agree that God hears our prayers and I also believe all of what you say about your prayer journal. And I absolutly agree that you have had assistance in your life, loving and forgiving. I have too but I hesitate to discuss it because most people react as presser has, with disbelief. And it is too often that one hears the comeback, well, where was God when the Jews were praying in Auschwitz, or when my devout friend had cancer, or when I needed a job? It is a blessing to recognize God moving and being in our life, even when things are going as badly as they did for Job. Thus, I focus on the relationship and transformation, and pray with the knowledge that God hears and cares about me whether or not things go the way I want them to. And, if you listen, God does reply.

lunamoth

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by mee

i dont think the bible tells us in genesis that 120 years is mans age limit , it is telling noah that there will be 120 years more untill the flood , but i do agree that the bible tells us that 70 or 80 years is about it , (psalm 90;10)at the momment that is.

Better go back to your bible, and check again...

[presser_kun]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

I absolutly agree that you have had assistance in your life, loving and forgiving. I have too but I hesitate to discuss it because most people react as presser has, with disbelief.

As I said in my last post, lunamoth, I don't mean to be harsh, though, to a believer, how else can what I said seem?

The thing is, I want, really want, to believe.

Really.

Wish I could get past my frustrating "faith" in logic . . .

press

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by presser_kun

As I said in my last post, lunamoth, I don't mean to be harsh, though, to a believer, how else can what I said seem?

The thing is, I want, really want, to believe.

Really.

Wish I could get past my frustrating "faith" in logic . . .

press

Logic states that a man can calculate "Pi" to infinity...

Care to try?

v/r

Q

[presser_kun]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Logic states that a man can calculate "Pi" to infinity...

Care to try?

v/r

Q

Dear Q:

Logic doesn't state this. Mathematicians, however state that Pi is an infinite decimal, not that a man can calculate it into infinity.

Here are exerpts from:

http://mathforum.org/dr.math/faq/faq.pi.html

---------------------
Pi is an infinite decimal. Unlike numbers such as 3, 9.876, and 4.5, which have finitely many nonzero numbers to the right of the decimal place, pi has infinitely many numbers to the right of the decimal point. If you write pi down in decimal form, the numbers to the right of the 0 never repeat in a pattern.

Some infinite decimals do have patterns - for instance, the infinite decimal .3333333... has all 3's to the right of the decimal point, and in the number .123456789123456789123456789... the sequence 123456789 is repeated.

However, although many mathematicians have tried to find it, no repeating pattern for pi has been discovered - in fact, in 1768 Johann Lambert proved that there cannot be such a repeating pattern.

---------------------

All best,

press

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by presser_kun

As I said in my last post, lunamoth, I don't mean to be harsh, though, to a believer, how else can what I said seem?

The thing is, I want, really want, to believe.

Really.

Wish I could get past my frustrating "faith" in logic . . .

press

Hi press, you are not being harsh, you are just saying how you see it. No worries about that.

A couple of questions. First, why do you want to believe? Second, what do you gain by deciding to seek truth without God?

OK, I will share a little bit more. I never set out to believe in God. I am a scientist (by training and by occupation, until I had children). My career was great, my marriage was/is good, my life was comfortable. But in spite of everything seeming to be going along smoothly I had a deep deep sense that I was not progressing, just treading water (until what?); I was going around aimlessly. A deep sense that I was not living up to my potential, but wasting my life. There were signs: I drank too much, I was stressed, not satisfied with my job (even though it was exactly where I should have been by all external measure), wanted a family but somehow could never get going on it (we have fertility issues). So on the surface things looked great, but inside I felt empty. But even when I came to this realization, the very last place I would have ever thought to look was God and religion. I was not a religious person, not even a 'spiritual' person. I looked to philosophy to fill that hole.

Well, I read the philosophers and the more I read, the more frustrated I became. They did not 'know' anything more than I did. Sure, they were intelligent and had dived deeper into reason about our existence much more than I ever had, but always at the bottom was...assumption. An assumption about who or what we are. I did not find it satisfying to adopt a worldview based upon someone else's assumptions. Yet, looking to myself I realized that I would never get past my Self, my ego (in retrospect, my false self).

I shared my disappointment and frustration over this with a colleague at work and he said he had gone through the same, but the only philosopher he ever could develop interest in was William James. He lent me The Varieties of Religious Experience. Also at the time, on the advice of a friend (a scientist) I had also started a little mediation routine (ala Deepek Chopra), but I still did not consider myself praying. If I ever formulated any small prayer during that time it was a simple "please thaw my heart," directed into the ether.

After that, I can't really pinpoint exactly what happened, but I decided to at least examine religion as a place that might hold what I was looking for. I worked in a laboratory that happened to be very unusual in that most of the scientists there were quite religious (two catholics, a few protestants, two Latter Day Saints, and a Baha'i). So, I started my investigation by reading and by asking my colleagues about their faith. The door back to my faith did not come from Christianity, but through the Baha'i Faith.

Long story short, once I opened my mind to the possibility that just perhaps science and materialism could not explain all that we are meant to be, I found the whole world opening up for me. I found direction and I found strength. Somewhere early along the line I stopped drinking, which has probably saved me from a life of alcoholism. I found gratitude and I found love. I found hope. I did the "experiment," and find the results conclusive.

I am still a scientist--we all are. It is right and natural that you should search for truth using reason and logic. But, as long as your criteria are limited to using science to understand your nature, you will never understand your nature beyond science.

apologies for the sermon,
lunamoth

[presser_kun]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

apologies for the sermon,

No apologies needed. I appreciate the detailed response. I have to tend to errands now (it's 11:16a here), but have saved your post for a thoughtful re-reading and pondering - as I did with your earlier one. I'll respond in due course.

peace to all who are working through this thread.

press

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by presser_kun

Dear Q:

Logic doesn't state this. Mathematicians, however state that Pi is an infinite decimal, not that a man can calculate it into infinity.

Here are exerpts from:

http://mathforum.org/dr.math/faq/faq.pi.html

---------------------
Pi is an infinite decimal. Unlike numbers such as 3, 9.876, and 4.5, which have finitely many nonzero numbers to the right of the decimal place, pi has infinitely many numbers to the right of the decimal point. If you write pi down in decimal form, the numbers to the right of the 0 never repeat in a pattern.

Some infinite decimals do have patterns - for instance, the infinite decimal .3333333... has all 3's to the right of the decimal point, and in the number .123456789123456789123456789... the sequence 123456789 is repeated.

However, although many mathematicians have tried to find it, no repeating pattern for pi has been discovered - in fact, in 1768 Johann Lambert proved that there cannot be such a repeating pattern.

---------------------

All best,

press

Given time, there is nothing man can not do...

[Quahom1]

We are told, given time there is nothing Man can not accomplish (nothing he can not do). Even if one does not believe in the concept of God, the ancients proclaimed this revelation. Man can accomplish anything. But whether for good or bad is a different matter.

Scripture states the same thing. God said, Man can do anything he sets out to do...

Why?

v/r

Q

[mee]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Better go back to your bible, and check again...

Before the Flood, God fixed a 120-year time limit for the corrupt world that humans and rebellious materialized angels had brought about. (Genesis 6:1-3 yes he saw it was bad and was going to do something about it

After that Jehovah said: "My spirit shall not act toward man indefinitely in that he is also flesh. Accordingly his days shall amount to a hundred and twenty years. Genesis 6-3

(Romans 9:22) If, now, God, although having the will to demonstrate his wrath and to make his power known, tolerated with much long-suffering vessels of wrath made fit for destruction,

(1 Peter 3:20) who had once been disobedient when the patience of God was waiting in Noah’s days, while the ark was being constructed, in which a few people, that is, eight souls, were carried safely through the water............. yes God had a timetable , he had the power to destroy them there and then ,but he didnt, he told noah to give a warning first , it took about 120 years before the flood came ,he had a family and they grew up, and years to do the warning and building work, then the flood came ........yes God was very patient wasnt he , its a bit like today , all of the things done in opposition to Gods way of doing things ,God is patient now as well . yes it works out at about 120 years then the flood came, its quite plain to see when you look into it.

[brucegdc]

I think we *know* nothing about God. What we have is various beliefs that have been handed down and developed over the years. We do not even *know* that God exists. Many of us do, however, believe in that existence.

To know, one must have proof. Spiritual writings of themselves cannot provide that proof - it's the old "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" problem. Systems with the axiom "God exists" can be equally self-consistent with sytems that state "Multiple Gods Exist", and with systems that state "No God Exists" - or as Buddhism states "Nothing exists". There then also becomes an argument about the attributes of deity - especially when you end up with non-self-consistent axioms like "infinitely kind" and "life sucks"... or as one of the comparative religion/philosophy courses I took put it - trying to rationalize the concept of a power of infinite goodness with the apparent reality of non-goodness existing - which is resolved by different religious systems in different ways.

... can you tell I'm an ex-math major <grin> ....