What do we know about God?

[didymus]

Quahom, no doubt the christians extend themselves beyond others in many ways. Without a doubt there are christians filled with God's love and spirit. Some of these folks spread the word of God with the intention of truly helping another, others because they feel it is their duty as a christian to convert people to Jesus Christ. I think it can be taken as arrogant and presumptuous that one would need saving because they don't believe the same as others. I think it is very exclusive to tell people that heaven isn't open to them due to their nonbelief in Jesus. How is this inclusive. It's inclusive if you believe the same way, if not then you aren't considered part of God's maercy and grace.

Bandit, I think there are many misleading books out there,. These aren't any of the books I refer to. The language of the heart is universal. Those that speak truth are known by their words and actions. There are so many different forms of spirituality that take onestraight to God. I read alot of different things out there, particularly experiences of those that enter deep meditation, prayer, NDE's and the like. There is a commonality that threads through all of this and that is God. The God that speaks to you sometimes but you ignore itbecause it may be wrong. You know what I mean. Those fleeting thoughts or that intuition that something doesn't sound right or sit well with you, but you can't share it with some,because they will tell you that you are wrong. Those people that will listen to the doubt and ambiguity you have without redirecting you to the source of confusion. These are the people that speak the same language. They will direct you to your heart and your conscious. There you will find truth. As the master said, "the kingdom is within you".

[taijasi]

As for sig quotes, I think mine is one I shall never find myself at odds with. Voltaire was a bit of a smart-ass, but in this case, the many anthropomorphisms that result in the "Buddy God" phenomenon ... speak for themselves. Notwithstanding my own rejection of the "personal" aspects of the Christian YHWH (for such a being would be the very antithesis of touchy-feely sentimentality and such pettiness as jealousy, anger and an ego that demands its own worship) ... Kevin Smith was perhaps onto something with his Buddy Christ!

I display mine proudly for all the Missionaries to see ... although, whether Jehovah's Witness, Mormon, Baptist or Catholic ... I suspect no one sees it (Buddy Christ) quite like Kevin Smith. Okay, okay, there are others ...

Anyway, no offense is inteded, as even Kevin Smith demonstrated a more believable and personable God-figure than I think the Christian Church has ever managed to do ... Alanis is my hero, and if one must insist on the whole "personal relationship with Jeeeeeeesus" bit, then I'd rather it be Alanis than the Jesus I keep hearing about. But that's just because I don't think the Christian version of Jesus is much like the (actual) man at all. Again, that is my opinion (and sincere hope) - not meant as a jab.

ummm .... okay, focusing on pure aspirations here, I agree with Silverbackman in that if we're daring to speak of The One About Whom Naught May Be Said ... or any aspect of this being greater than our Planetary Spirit (the Divine Repesentative for our little planet, so to speak) ... let's ditch the "Him" word. We do know that Deity is beyond gender, and while "He" is comfortable for some, "She" is much more suitable for others. Language is completely irrelevant, for if "God" (or let's just say, Christ or YHWH) has even a fraction of these supposed powers we ascribe to Him ... then even before we have entered into prayer, our communion has already occurred.

Perhaps we should think about what Deity actually means. You know, God. That word. That conception of Being, or of A Being. These two (`Being' and `A Being') can be the same, related, or entirely different. I would suggest that all three are true of God. We must learn to consider a different idea of God than the one we're used to. Why? Because if you've settled on something - on anything - as your "God" ... I got news for you. You're in for a shock!

Bound to be upsetting, downright nasty even, for some - but I think we can rest assured that God just keeps getting better and better. The really unsettling news, I'm afraid, is for the folks who have most concretized their understanding, conception, or image of God ... as well as for those who have utterly rejected the notion - when they should know better. This means that those who are truly ignorant (not meant pejoratively, just as a condition of un-awareness) ... are off the hook. No, not blissfully, GOD no! Anyone who thinks ignorance is bliss, has obviously never experienced spiritual BLISS. But for a hint, it is that state and type of consciousness, of which Christ's Love and the Buddha's Compassion are but the faintest, earthly reflections. Or, to relate it to the most wonderful sex a person might have ever had ... the best orgasm is like experiencing only a tiny, tiny fragment - maybe a thousandth of a percent - of what the Love-Bliss-Consciousness of God is like. And yet, this is only relative to Earth's tiny God(YHWH) ... since we could know nothing of the Bliss-Consciousness of more exalted beings!

It's no wonder the 60's swept so many spiritual seekers away with all the influx of Eastern Teachings into the West, and I'm beginning to sound like Swami Beyond-Anandana myself! But it's easier to focus on this Love thing that Christians talk so much about, as personified through the example of Jesus of Nazareth ... that to get lost on power trips or angels dancing on pinheads. Bandit can show you a thing or two about pinheads, and I just sat here speechless while ago, realizing what a human being can do - in prison, mind you - if devoted enough and ... inspired. Ask Bandit ...

At any rate, I don't think a long dispute would be useful, Quahom, regarding the relative merits of Christian Missionizing versus the contributions of the Buddhist tradition. But if the usual novella of mine isn't preferred, I could gladly list for you, in bullet form, a few slight offenses (oh, you know, the Inquisition, Witch Trials, & Crusades, to name a few) ... that somewhat tip the scales. No ... I think organized relgion in general has been a blight of evil upon the face of this earth - not due to the founders, or to the faithful, but to those who ... in their own words, again & again, have simply said, "We're doing this for your own good, to save your soul, to help you know & meet God, who loves you!" (this said, as they light the wood at your feet, tossing on a few cats for good measure ... or tighten the thumbscrews).

Errr, uhhh, ahem! Long days of yesteryore, is that when all these offenses occurred. I disagree. The so-called Missionizing, though intended in the best of spirits, I am sure (usually), is not welcomed by these poor, heathen, godless primitives - who were obviously so ignorant & foolish before they heard of Jeeeeezus ... that their precisely-aligned and expertly-constructed monuments, solar observatories and TEMPLES ... were clearly just an accident of ignorance! dangit, GO FISH

Pardon my actually becoming passionate about an idea for a change ... but I think I've about had it with the we're Holy and Saved bit, and we offer this lovely free gift if you will only come worship with us, and tithe, and help form part of our little clique mentality. Yes indeed, excuse me for actually agreeing with Didymus... who said in this case, eloquently, beautifully and non-offensively .... what I have tried to suggest again, and again, and again on these forums. We all missionize here, a bit, and in the true spirit that it was intended, that is right and proper. I do not suggest that all Christian Missionaries are zealots and usurpers ...

... but to get back to my point about Buddhism, name me some of the big Buddhist massacres of history. Okay? Go ahead. Make a bulleted list. Tell me about the missionizing that Buddhists do wherein beliefs are imposed on others. Tell me about tortures, and power trips, and the whole nine yards. Mmmmm-hmmm. Thought so ...

Let me just suggest, that God is a bit more like this: God Loves, God forgives, and God knows all about Responsibility. He is the best example, after all - even if, so poorly understood. But that's our shortcoming, and in time, we'll learn - and every mistake, if accepted as valuable, can serve to bring us closer. Nothing but Opportunities for Learning and Growth. Strange concept for some, increasingly obvious for others.

And as for outer creeds and observances? You do what you like, God isn't sitting there with Google, or Bruce Almighty's AOL-mail, filtering out prayers from Christians, or Jews, or Buddhists, or people who always pray standing upside down, or whatever. And I really don't think it matters what you're wearing, or why. But if you wanna think a bit about what God might be like, if you could meet Him, try thinking of Morgan Freeman's character in Bruce Almighty. In simple, Christian terms, that's a good starting point for God.

And what's next? How about the fulfilment of a new chapter in Human Self-Understanding, and in Divine Self-Understanding? Our society is undergoing the delicate, important process of coming together in so many ways, focused increasingly on interrelationships, interdependencies, and the strength that comes through cooperation & a United Approach ... nevertheless there remain such strong pockets of separatism, exclusivity, and elitism. We do, of course, have materialism, and poor leadership to blame for much of our woe, but in the last analysis, it is about Right Human Relationships ... and I would sumbit that if we don't take heed at this point, then we can stop looking Heavenward for our hopes & answers.

If you've lost your faith in the Spirit of Mankind, then try looking for it again. If you must think in these terms, then just consider that we are all the Children of the Divine ... and that means EVERYONE. Wanna know who, and what, Satan/Evil is? It's the force/energy/part of you that wants to say, in this case, "BUT-" Try telling (it) to butt out for a change.

Another way to say this, is that GOD is Immanent, as well as Transcendent. Immanent means present, already - without groveling, and chanting, and even without believing. What? You don't think so? You darn well better HOPE so! Use your HEAD - as well as your heart. It's not just sittin' there for food intake. God is present within every single atom. God is the force that creates, sustains, and eventually destroys - matter itself (converting it back into ultimate energy, a subtler form of God). Yet God is also the force that binds matter together, in whatever configuration ... and yes, obviously these various forces are malleable. But with forms of greater complexity, and increasing resemblance to their ultimate wielder, a greater measure of the Divine can manifest. And this is why it is true to say that the mineral is literally alive with the Divine Life, even though from our point of view the God-Consciousness slumbers. It has a long time before it awakens, but for it, time is not. Nor for the vegetable, and even animals are not self-conscious (as we are), yet in them there is evidence of the Divine Soul, emerging into the Light of God's Loving Attention and Awareness. None can escape it, except in the darkness of human ignorance, hate, and separativeness. And as has also been said, "The mind is the great slayer of the Real."

So do not destory this Truth: Christ, Buddha, other Great Ones (before their day, and yet to come) are not different than us, in Essence, only in measure. The reason, and the proof of this, is God Immanent. And we must learn to distinguish between God Transcendent, and God Immanent. St. Paul offered help, yet he is misunderstood, or else I notice that people stubbornly refuse to heed his words. God Immanent means that Christ is already present within us ... and for one in whom the Christ Presence has begun to awaken, this cannot be denied, and is known on no uncertain terms. It is only those who have been misled through the use of FEAR - the weapon of the dark forces - who are frightened to learn & hear of the Presence of God Immanent. For this is the sure promise, the inevitability, of the defeat of evil. It occurs within each individual, as well as within groups, within nations, and eventually within Humanity as a whole. THAT is the Heaven on Earth which Christ spoke of, and which can develop, as God Immanent slowly starts to awaken - and approach God Transcendent. It is imminent!

The Mystic understands this curious relationship, but the Esotericist knows that the Mysteries of Identity are among the most sublime secrets any person can ever know. Only those who have conquered ego, and fully awakened the God Immanent ... are able to attest to the Truth. Yet we can gain insight by learning to understand more about ourselves - knowing both our potential, and our weakness, and focusing on the Good. The Hermetic Axiom is `As above, so below,' and the Oracle at Delphi gave the injunction, `Man, Know Thy Self.' But more recently still, the poet Alexander Pope phrased it thus:

"Know then thyself; presume not God to scan;
The proper study of mankind is man."

Indeed, know God??? We don't even know ourselves!!!

Consider Shakespeare:

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." - Hamlet (Act I, scene v)

"All the world's a stage, And all the men and women merely players.
They have their exits and their entrances, And one man in his time plays many parts, His acts being seven ages."
- As You Like It (Act II, scene vii)

Shalom,

andrew

[taijasi]

Hylozoism, as described by H.P. Blavatsky:

"Hylozoism, when philosophically understood, is the highest aspect of Pantheism. It is the only possible escape from idiotic Atheism based on lethal materiality, and the still more idiotic anthropomorphic conceptions of the Monotheists; between which it stands on its own entirely neutral ground. Hylozoism demands absolute Divine Thought, which would pervade the numberless active creating Forces, or "Creators," which Entities are moved by, and have their being in, from and through that Divine Thought... Such active "Creators" are known to exist and are believed in because perceived and sensed by the Inner Man in the [Esotericist]."
- S.D., II, 167, 168.

She speaks here of the Christ within, God Immanent, or the Buddha nature (also, the discriminative faculty vivekha, or best of all, the faculty of Buddhi/Intution) ... as the "Inner Man," who knows.

Hylozoism includes the doctrine that all matter is endowed with life, to which I have already alluded.

"When we have attained to this conception of hylozoism of a living material universe, the mystery of nature will be solved."
- Standard Dictionary.

And finally ...

"All forms are composed of many forms, and all forms - aggregated or single in nature - are the expression of an indwelling or ensouling life. The fusion of life with living substance produces another aspect of expression: that of consciousness. This consciousness varies according to the natural receptivity of the form, according to its point in evolution, and to its position also in the great chain of [Being]." -Telepathy and the Etheric Vehicle, Alice Bailey, p. 183.

All things in due order ... all being in proper scale ... God everywhere, literally, and thus omniscient, omnipotent. Some parts, not benevolent from a human point of view. However, this is relative, in Greater Scheme, certainly, OmniBenevolent. Problem: Christian still struggling with great, essential truths of Taoism, yin-yang. Cannot reconcile evil with loving God.

Ahhhh, problem solved long ago in East, but West currently experiencing emphasis on principle of duality ... necessity of turning toward forms of right living (the world of Spiritual realities), and away from wrong living (blind materialism, spirit smothered by matter). Eastern Wisdom long familiar with Hylozoism, Western traditions still working problem out.

Confucius, for ya ... (close enough)

ps - I will not deny your "God in Christ Jesus," if you will acknowledge my "God in pet cat" ... do I worship cat? no. did Christ Jesus ask to be worshipped? no. Reverence of Teacher, paramount. Dignity of every life, also paramount. Hmmmm ...

-andrew

[Dondi]

Speaking of the Tao, C.S. Lewis had this to say:

"This thing which I have called for convenience the Tao, and which others may call Natural Law or Traditional Morality or the First Principles of Practical Reason or the First Platitudes, is not one among a series of possible systems of value. It is the sole source of all value judgements. If it is rejected, all value is rejected. If any value is retained, it is retained. The effort to refute it and raise a new system of value in its place is self-contradictory. There has never been, and never will be, a radically new judgement of value in the history of the world. What purport to be new systems or (as they now call them) 'ideologies', all consist of fragments from the Tao itself, arbitrarily wrenched from their context in the whole and then swollen to madness in their isolation, yet still owing to the Tao and to it alone such validity as they possess." - The Abolition of Man

All religions are fragments of the Tao. It is the Absolute of God, but we can only see this through a glass darkly in the paradigms of our own religions.

[MagnetMan]

Originally Posted by Silverbackman

BTW, I suggest you use the word "It" to describe God than "Him". God is genderless because gender is a quality only seen in life on Earth (and possibly with life outside our universe). It really doesn't matter if you use "Him" or "Her" but to me it looks more sophisticated if we use "It" with a capital i.

I pesonally refer to God as "Him" - and even more particularly as "God the Father" for pertinent reasons. A genderless, impersonal Godhead is impossible for me to regard with any sense of affection. And if love is not involved, what is the point of having a God? Perhaps as we evolve further and graduate beyond our present teen age consciousness and approach the end of our evolutionary cycle, as Sages, the current need to humanize Him will be transcended. At that time I believe we will re-unite with "God". In the meantime I see the feminine aspect of God as Mother Earth, who is real and knowable and loveable. And the Invisible spirit that motivates us as God the Father who is invisible and mysterious and therefore loveable. That grounds and comforts me and gives me the confidence and motivation to live my life as excellently as possible - knowing that both He and She are anxious witnesses to my every thought and deed.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by didymus

Quahom, no doubt the christians extend themselves beyond others in many ways. Without a doubt there are christians filled with God's love and spirit. Some of these folks spread the word of God with the intention of truly helping another, others because they feel it is their duty as a christian to convert people to Jesus Christ. I think it can be taken as arrogant and presumptuous that one would need saving because they don't believe the same as others. I think it is very exclusive to tell people that heaven isn't open to them due to their nonbelief in Jesus. How is this inclusive. It's inclusive if you believe the same way, if not then you aren't considered part of God's maercy and grace.

Hi Didymus,

Actually Christianity does not state non-Christians can't go to heaven (though some individuals might and do say so, erroneously).

What it states is that those who accept the offer of salvation, will not be judged to determine if they receive eternal life, or eternal damnation. They will be judged as to what reward they will have in heaven. Some will be first and some will be last. Some will sit at the head of the table and some at the foot (me, I'll be the door man at the pearly gates)

Christians believe that Jesus paid the penalty for their fallibility, therefore don't have to stand before the "Judge" and account for their life, only for what they did after receiving their "pardon" (in other words how did they invest what they'd been given for the betterment of their fellow man). The three servants with the talents comes to mind.

Quite simply, the Christian God offers a clean fresh start while still living, or a second chance if you will. I see nothing arrogant about that. In fact it gives a rather hopeful feeling.

my thoughts

v/r

Q

[soulatom]

Originally Posted by Bandit

now spirit(s) are different because that is of a different substance that cannot be calculated the same way as the material things. however mind (thoughts) can be observed in different ways.

so God is literally in -IN- everything that is material, yet somehow He is able to attach & disconnect (get close or distant) Himself to our spirit & a lot of that depends on us.

so, i am getting some semi-inverted perceptions for some reason & it feels pretty good.

Hi Bandit...I like your train of thought, chess is a good metaphor of life.

“There are only four scientifically verifiable sources of energy in the universe.
All are dependent on atomic mass. Theoretically a force without mass can have no gravitational attraction; no electro-magnetic properties and no weak or strong effect. Yet now an exotic invisible force that has no detectable mass, is never the less registering a profoundly powerful influence on the universe, and on the minds and hearts of our most advanced scientific investigators.

Though they have no instrument to actually detect it, their theoretical calculations reveal that whatever this pervasive invisibleuniversal presence is, it is seven times more powerful than all the known forces, and it is exerting a definite effect on the behavior of physical matter. (Hang in with me here…)
Mysterious questions have arisen: If this force has no atomic mass, from whence does it get its energy? How and why does it influence physical behavior? What on Earth can be it be composed of? How can it be evaluated?”

This is headed in the right dierection I think.... . (I took this quote from a book Psyche-Genetics)

[didymus]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Hi Didymus,

Actually Christianity does not state non-Christians can't go to heaven (though some individuals might and do say so, erroneously).

What it states is that those who accept the offer of salvation, will not be judged to determine if they receive eternal life, or eternal damnation. They will be judged as to what reward they will have in heaven. Some will be first and some will be last. Some will sit at the head of the table and some at the foot (me, I'll be the door man at the pearly gates)

Christians believe that Jesus paid the penalty for their fallibility, therefore don't have to stand before the "Judge" and account for their life, only for what they did after receiving their "pardon" (in other words how did they invest what they'd been given for the betterment of their fellow man). The three servants with the talents comes to mind.

Quite simply, the Christian God offers a clean fresh start while still living, or a second chance if you will. I see nothing arrogant about that. In fact it gives a rather hopeful feeling.

my thoughts

v/r

Q

Q, I do take issue with this belief. The notion that a man or woman is pardoned from judgement due to their acceptance and belief that Jesus is Lord while others who have perhaps lived a very upright life will have to stand trial is too man made for me. It rings of human logic and reasoning. The man or woman that dedicates their life to good deeds and thoughts, whether or not they believe in Jesus should and will have eternal peace also. Personally i believe that one who acts and lives as Jesus did(which is what he preached) will have eternal life and rewards in heaven.

I think life is an enormous lesson that we all have to learn and we grow spiritually as a result. Many Christians think that their belief and acceptance of Jesus excludes them from many of life's lessons. And it is no wonder because the contemporary christian models his faith after Paul. Faith and faith alone is sufficient. Acts is the other side to this equation which Jesus preached and James continued after his death. I know that there are christians that practice good acts but they don't believe their acts have any impact on their eternity. I think they do. Loving action and compassion towards others, forgiveness, these are the keys and secrets to life and the hereafter.

[soulatom]

[QUOTE=Silverbackman]It's not a deity. It doesn't have to be one either. My point is that the universe/multiverse/omniverse can be considered God but not in a deity sense. The term "God" has many meanings. It doesn't have to be the primitive deity that is limited to a body like in the many mythologies of the world.
QUOTE]

I agree with you on the soul, and it seems to me that we have well established that there is "GOD" whatever form we decide to percieve God as. My yearning lies in the area that if we are conscious of God, and God is conscious of us, then what is our purpose and how do we fulfill it within the universes or finite limits of this consciousness.

(Suggestion noted...I just happen to feel that God consciousness is solar, respresentative of the male energy in the universe and that Earth is elemental of the feminine principle, yin/yang, left-brain right-brain, kinda thing, together I guess that makes It)

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by soulatom

Hi Bandit...I like your train of thought, chess is a good metaphor of life.

“There are only four scientifically verifiable sources of energy in the universe.
All are dependent on atomic mass. Theoretically a force without mass can have no gravitational attraction; no electro-magnetic properties and no weak or strong effect. Yet now an exotic invisible force that has no detectable mass, is never the less registering a profoundly powerful influence on the universe, and on the minds and hearts of our most advanced scientific investigators.

Though they have no instrument to actually detect it, their theoretical calculations reveal that whatever this pervasive invisibleuniversal presence is, it is seven times more powerful than all the known forces, and it is exerting a definite effect on the behavior of physical matter. (Hang in with me here…)
Mysterious questions have arisen: If this force has no atomic mass, from whence does it get its energy? How and why does it influence physical behavior? What on Earth can be it be composed of? How can it be evaluated?”

This is headed in the right dierection I think.... . (I took this quote from a book Psyche-Genetics)

There is a fifth form of energy...scientifically acknowledged but not quite understood.

v/r

Q

[taijasi]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Actually Christianity does not state non-Christians can't go to heaven ...

What it states is that those who accept the offer of salvation, will not be judged to determine if they receive eternal life, or eternal damnation. They will be judged as to what reward they will have in heaven. Some will be first and some will be last. Some will sit at the head of the table and some at the foot (me, I'll be the door man at the pearly gates)

Christians believe that Jesus paid the penalty for their fallibility, therefore don't have to stand before the "Judge" and account for their life, only for what they did after receiving their "pardon" (in other words how did they invest what they'd been given for the betterment of their fellow man). The three servants with the talents comes to mind.

Quite simply, the Christian God offers a clean fresh start while still living, or a second chance if you will. I see nothing arrogant about that. In fact it gives a rather hopeful feeling.

Hmmm ... I guess my hopeful feeling comes from believing that God is a God of equality, and with a level playing field. Thus, all are judged by one standard, not Christians by a different standard ... and the rest of us poor saps by yet another one.

I would suggest that perhaps you consider some accounts by folks who have had out-of-body - and more particulary, near-death - experiences, since quite a few of these experienced the whole bit about standing before one's Heavenly judge. The various accounts of Christians & non-Christians alike seem to agree, on such basics as the proverbial light at the end of the tunnel (though literally), meeting a figure of inconceivable or blinding brilliance, and often of experiencing a life review (something also confirmed in communications from those who have actually died, via mediums), as well as being "sent back" to the body to complete one's tasks in life. And usually, though not always, such experiences lead to a renewed sense of purpose, and a broadening of one's understanding, including the breaking down of feelings of separation from others - including all senses of superiority, relgious or otherwise.

Now as I say, non-Christians have these same experiences, and in fact, often seem more prone to provide an objective description of the various aspects of the encounter. Quite often, though not always, they will describe the figure of blinding light as being Christlike, due in part to the profound love that emanates from this being, and which is communicated to them and felt & known to extend to all beings. Also, this being (or type of being) doesn't harp upon religious deeds, or beliefs, or outer trappings. The type, quality, and amount of information communicated doesn't seem to depend on whether one has been a Christian, a Buddhist, or even religious at all ... although it may be easier for those with some kind of spiritual belief to interpret and benefit from such near-death experiences.

But as I say, it seems that, while descriptions do often make mention of a Christlike being, only the dyed-in-the-wool Christians seem insistent upon labeling their blindingly-brilliant, loving figure from the other side as Christ Himself, or Jesus. Others have no problem considering that it could have simply been, more objectively, a being of immense, all-embracing love & compassion, brilliant to the point of blinding with the Light of understanding and Wisdom. Tell me why the difference of interpretation? Is it because the Christian simply knows better, and has been able to identify his God, or the Son of God, in the next world (?) ... or do you suppose it might be that this is what s/he has been taught to believe, and what to expect, upon dying, upon "meeting one's maker," and upon entering into Heaven? Hmmm ....

If you are convinced that it simply must be Christ/Jesus/YHWH that these people are all meeting, or that the Christians are meeting Jesus and the others are encountering someone/something else, or that perhaps all of this is just hokey, or too uncertain to say much about ... (a copout, as it were) ... then might I recommend the books by Robert Monroe? Start with Journeys Out of the Body, and if you get to the end and want more, he wrote another, Far Journeys, I think, which continues the story. Ultimate Journeys goes even farther, but gets a bit into methodology for having one's own OOBE, and in that, I would recommend caution. Fools rush in ...

Still, before one hastily draws one's own conclusions and slams the door shut on the still, small voice of Truth whispering in one's ear ... perhaps consider the works of Howard Storm, who I believe approaches this subject from a Christian perspective, and remains quite Christian - not despite, but increasingly thanks to, his near-death experience. And why should he see things any other way?

I guess I just take it for granted (and seemingly obvious) that Christians need not be exclusive, or elitist, or in any way offensive. After all, if we find Truth & Wisdom in the Teachings and Life of the great Christian Master, then why should we not take these to heart, and practice as He showed us! And if it is Mohammad, or Sri Krishna, who shines out for us as the great example, then likewise. It is only when we, admitting it or denying it - are ourselves doubtful, fearful, and insecure ... that we adopt a smug & self-righteous attitude, and set out to convert the world - since only thus, can we avoid dealing with our own insecurities.

Christ certianly taught that we must know, and face ourselves ... and not seek to hide in the crowd, or go about seeking to remove the dust mote from our neighbors eyes. Too many planks still piled up right here in the living room, no place to sit. A deadly sin it is, I think, to leave our own house, and go abroad to judge others ... for by this same standard, and in the same measure, shall we be judged. And He did not say, "except for Christians." If anything, He might indicate - Especially those, who know the Way. For such, have a great responsibility.

Peace,

andrew

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by taijasi

Hmmm ... I guess my hopeful feeling comes from believing that God is a God of equality, and with a level playing field. Thus, all are judged by one standard, not Christians by a different standard ... and the rest of us poor saps by yet another one. andrew

No, that is the precipise of the Christian faith. Be one level up or take your chances with the rest...

50/50 crap shoot, or have a leg up.

That is what makes Christianity different from all other faiths. Why would anyone want to take that away?

It's like Monopoly. Play the game, and every once in awhile someone gets a pass go card. Not that all players can't win, but some get an advantage. They pass "Go" plus get $200.00 . That really bothers non-Christians. "What makes you so special?" Answer: their acceptance of the Christ. Let me tell you, it makes all the difference in the world to those who accept that Christ like fellow...

v/r

Q

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by didymus

Q, I do take issue with this belief. The notion that a man or woman is pardoned from judgement due to their acceptance and belief that Jesus is Lord while others who have perhaps lived a very upright life will have to stand trial is too man made for me. It rings of human logic and reasoning. The man or woman that dedicates their life to good deeds and thoughts, whether or not they believe in Jesus should and will have eternal peace also. Personally i believe that one who acts and lives as Jesus did(which is what he preached) will have eternal life and rewards in heaven.

I think life is an enormous lesson that we all have to learn and we grow spiritually as a result. Many Christians think that their belief and acceptance of Jesus excludes them from many of life's lessons. And it is no wonder because the contemporary christian models his faith after Paul. Faith and faith alone is sufficient. Acts is the other side to this equation which Jesus preached and James continued after his death. I know that there are christians that practice good acts but they don't believe their acts have any impact on their eternity. I think they do. Loving action and compassion towards others, forgiveness, these are the keys and secrets to life and the hereafter.

Hi Didymus,

I truly understand your dilema. The concept of being a basically "good person" struck a nerve with me as well.

Then I dreamed...and I saw everything I'd ever done wrong. Didymus, I was so disgusted with myself, that I would judge me to death.

Half the time we underate ourselves and the other half is spent overrating ourselves. If left to the judicial pillars of man, not a one of us would survive...

We are our own worst judges, and God comes in the nick of time to save us from ourselves.

v/r

Q

[taijasi]

Quahom,

One is free, both in this great country of America, as well as here on planet Earth, to hold any religious belief one chooses. Sadly, many are persecuted who practice their faith openly, and thus an underground has always existed ... and actually, that has probably been more important in the long, sordid history of the world's religions - than what has been popular.

Remember, might does not make right, and in fact, it often ends up as nothing but oppression. The Romans feared the Essenes, because they did not understand their Secrets. And so the Catholic Church feared the Knights Templar, and assisted Philip le Bel in dissolving their (outer) Order. The Freemasons, likewise, have been persectured ... and the simple wiccan ways were misunderstood, during the Inquisition, and Salem Witch Trials.

Truth's Messengers are often, if not universally - persecuted ... and the Greatest of these, were usually crucified, whether in Roman times via Roman means, or in the style of the day, such as a simple stoning, or being dragged through streets.

My point? Things are a bit more complicated than they seem. It would be great ... if lip service was enough, or if those pure of heart were automatically delivered from the karma & dharma of service. Or would it? Would we continue to learn, to grow, to come into the fullness of Christ as St. Paul indicated? Wouldn't we, actually, begin to stagnate, and reach a plateau, where there was no additional progress?

Hmmm ... I do not question or doubt that after periods of activity, and labor, there is a need for rest, and for the reaping of the harvest. This is natural; thus the cycles run - on earth, as also in Heaven. As above, so below.

And therefore, after we strive, and hold to our Faith - in ourselves, in God, and in our fellow man - then it is only natural, that we experience expansions of awareness, resulting in greater understanding, and in a deepening of our relationship with the Divine. Yet s/he who mistakes this portion of the cycle for the end of effort, is destined to start the cycle afresh, at a later date - with a tabula rasa, as it were - since in no other way will such a person be able to profit.

And that is why it is not incorrect, in my experience & findings, to be able to say, I have discovered a portion of Truth, of the Wisdom, of the secret(s) of Life Eternal ... and as far as one has gone, be on the mark. But the true Saggitarian knows that only in Capricorn lies the gateway - and a New Beginning, on a higher turn of the spiral.

And there are Christian Saggitarians, and Christian Capricornians, such as the Master Himself. And thus, His open invitation to Enter In, stands. I trust that those who tarry amidst the fields of labor, having paused to survey the work at hand, or wipe the sweat from the brow, will soon take up the plow again, and make progress. Some may be overcome with fatigue, while others simply grow weary of the discipline & persistence that is required ... and they sit down, never to stand again for the rest of their days. But it is not ours to criticize, or judge, just as it is foolish to dispute the man who labors in the house of Scorpio, while one is working as an Aquarian, or Piscean.

If you can understand, then it should be clear. The Water of Life, poured out for thirsty men ... irrigates every field. One need not leave one's house, to drink from that Spring. And woe unto him who would deny his brother the much needed refreshment. Some of us, who sit, are yet keenly aware of the fact that (wo)men thirst, everywhere.

He who (already) sits at the Head of that table ... is He who is last to leave the field. The field ... is Service.

the apostate

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by taijasi

Quahom,

One is free, both in this great country of America, as well as here on planet Earth, to hold any religious belief one chooses. Sadly, many are persecuted who practice their faith openly, and thus an underground has always existed ... and actually, that has probably been more important in the long, sordid history of the world's religions - than what has been popular.

Remember, might does not make right, and in fact, it often ends up as nothing but oppression. The Romans feared the Essenes, because they did not understand their Secrets. And so the Catholic Church feared the Knights Templar, and assisted Philip le Bel in dissolving their (outer) Order. The Freemasons, likewise, have been persectured ... and the simple wiccan ways were misunderstood, during the Inquisition, and Salem Witch Trials.

Truth's Messengers are often, if not universally - persecuted ... and the Greatest of these, were usually crucified, whether in Roman times via Roman means, or in the style of the day, such as a simple stoning, or being dragged through streets.

My point? Things are a bit more complicated than they seem. It would be great ... if lip service was enough, or if those pure of heart were automatically delivered from the karma & dharma of service. Or would it? Would we continue to learn, to grow, to come into the fullness of Christ as St. Paul indicated? Wouldn't we, actually, begin to stagnate, and reach a plateau, where there was no additional progress?

Hmmm ... I do not question or doubt that after periods of activity, and labor, there is a need for rest, and for the reaping of the harvest. This is natural; thus the cycles run - on earth, as also in Heaven. As above, so below.

And therefore, after we strive, and hold to our Faith - in ourselves, in God, and in our fellow man - then it is only natural, that we experience expansions of awareness, resulting in greater understanding, and in a deepening of our relationship with the Divine. Yet s/he who mistakes this portion of the cycle for the end of effort, is destined to start the cycle afresh, at a later date - with a tabula rasa, as it were - since in no other way will such a person be able to profit.

And that is why it is not incorrect, in my experience & findings, to be able to say, I have discovered a portion of Truth, of the Wisdom, of the secret(s) of Life Eternal ... and as far as one has gone, be on the mark. But the true Saggitarian knows that only in Capricorn lies the gateway - and a New Beginning, on a higher turn of the spiral.

And there are Christian Saggitarians, and Christian Capricornians, such as the Master Himself. And thus, His open invitation to Enter In, stands. I trust that those who tarry amidst the fields of labor, having paused to survey the work at hand, or wipe the sweat from the brow, will soon take up the plow again, and make progress. Some may be overcome with fatigue, while others simply grow weary of the discipline & persistence that is required ... and they sit down, never to stand again for the rest of their days. But it is not ours to criticize, or judge, just as it is foolish to dispute the man who labors in the house of Scorpio, while one is working as an Aquarian, or Piscean.

If you can understand, then it should be clear. The Water of Life, poured out for thirsty men ... irrigates every field. One need not leave one's house, to drink from that Spring. And woe unto him who would deny his brother the much needed refreshment. Some of us, who sit, are yet keenly aware of the fact that (wo)men thirst, everywhere.

He who (already) sits at the Head of that table ... is He who is last to leave the field. The field ... is Service.

the apostate

I am Picese, and my spouse is Cancer. I am Catholic and my spouse is Wiccan. I think I understand much more than given credit for...and some fields do not perk water very well (sorry the engineer in me).

Whoa to him who deliberatly places a stumbling block before his brother, as well...

but blessed is he who tells it like it is...

v/r

Q