What good is the doctrine of Predestination?

[cyberpi]

Q, a minor point, but while potential outcomes are many they are finite.

[Silas]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Of course you don't. All you apparently see is your own, and everyone else is an idiot...

Maybe, you are mistaken, and others are not so deluded, or dumb, or blinded as you think...but the only way you might come to that conclusion, is if you consider that God deals with different people in different ways. Christians are not cookie cutter gingerbread men...

v/r

Joshua

I dont consider you and idiot, Q. Also, I do agree that man has a free will, but I dont see from scripture that man is sovereign in salvation and that predestination is based on God's foreknowledge of someone's choice. Maybe you can show me a few scriptures that do? How do you understand Romans 8:29 and 1Peter 1:1?

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by cyberpi

Q, a minor point, but while potential outcomes are many they are finite.

lol, from man's perspective, or God's?

[cyberpi]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

lol, from man's perspective, or God's?

Oops! Well it wouldn't even be anywhere near man's perspective... it was my own. Maybe I should say that observation reveals that the Earth has so far followed some laws that God made, and that framework places a limit on possible outcomes. Free will is more of a selection from those outcomes within that limit. There are many, many compounded outcomes, and maybe someday God will grant me more to choose from, but at this time a trip to Venus for lunch is not one of the available outcomes.

[Prober]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

The future is a multi-faceted potential. There are infinite outcomes. Predestination simply means God knows all of them, every possibility. Free will determines which outcome will occur for each man, but God sees all possible outcomes for each man. That is why the book of life isn't opened until final judgement. We all have choice, and the chance to have our names added in the book of life, until our life passes from this existence into the next.

v/r

Joshua

I don't believe in "predestination" per se. I agree with everything else you stated.

As someone (I don't remember whom) stated previously, "If you left your kids alone in a room with a red button and said "play with all the other toys, but don't push the red button" and then closed the door, you would be pretty sure what would happen".

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Silas

I dont consider you and idiot, Q. Also, I do agree that man has a free will, but I dont see from scripture that man is sovereign in salvation and that predestination is based on God's foreknowledge of someone's choice. Maybe you can show me a few scriptures that do? How do you understand Romans 8:29 and 1Peter 1:1?

I never said "man" was sovereign in salvation. I said man had choice to accept or reject salvation. I never said God's fore knowledge of man's choice was reason for predestination, either. I said God is sovereign in offering man salvation.

What I said is that God knows every possibilty that the universe (man included), can come to (I don't need conjecture on that point). And what I said is that the book of life is not "OPENED" until the day of judgement. That is in Revelation according to John (chapter six I believe). And what I said was that a man can change his destiny up unto the point of death (that is he can accept the salvation of Jesus in his dying moments, but after...no).
As far as Romans 8 and 1 Peter, this is communication to those who have chosen to accept Christ. At the time, my friend, not everyone knew Jesus. But those that did and accepted His gift were chosen. Remember, this was written at a time when few were selected to have known Jesus. It was a fledgling "faith", and much depended upon the few to make or break that new faith. These were also paramount in continuing the new faith "many are called, few are chosen".

They had to have the "perfect" people to launch this new faith. These "letters" are not to people at large (back then), but to the hopeful new recruits of the time to keep the faith going.

I am not saying their messages do not apply today (perhaps they apply even more so today), but they were originally written for the frightened hopefuls of the day.

The "revolution" of Christianity 2000 years ago, got its start as shakey as the "revolution" of the United States 230 years ago...

There had to be much encouragement by the "heroes" and "patriots" of the times. Paul was such an hero...

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by cyberpi

Oops! Well it wouldn't even be anywhere near man's perspective... it was my own. Maybe I should say that observation reveals that the Earth has so far followed some laws that God made, and that framework places a limit on possible outcomes. Free will is more of a selection from those outcomes within that limit. There are many, many compounded outcomes, and maybe someday God will grant me more to choose from, but at this time a trip to Venus for lunch is not one of the available outcomes.

However, unlike any other creation in the universe, God has declared "There is nothing man can not accomplish that he sets his mind to"...just before he confounded the languages at the tower of Babel. God, implied man is capable of anything and everything. Granted, since we are created, we have a beginning. But the open ended statement of God concerning man's potential is, odd to say the least.

v/r

Joshua

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Prober

I don't believe in "predestination" per se. I agree with everything else you stated.

As someone (I don't remember whom) stated previously, "If you left your kids alone in a room with a red button and said "play with all the other toys, but don't push the red button" and then closed the door, you would be pretty sure what would happen".

Now see. What if one said to their children "If there is serious trouble, push the red button"?

Why did God pique man's curiosity by declaring something off limits? I think, God wanted to show angels, that man would ultimately turn to Him, given the choice/chance. Or maybe not. But it seems strange that angels fell in rebellion, and one in particular is called the accuser. Then man appears on stage (a little lower than angels, but above animals), and is set up for redemption, and the fallen ones are hell bent (pardon the pun), on making certain that God's second creation of sentients, fails miserably. But unlike the angels, man can turn to God for help (which delights Him to no end).

Like "American democracy", man seems to be an experiment doomed to fail from the start...but something went terribly wrong, and the experiment is working (e.g. man is turning towards God)...

[Prober]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Like "American democracy", man seems to be an experiment doomed to fail from the start...but something went terribly wrong, and the experiment is working (e.g. man is turning towards God)...

Pardon the "corniness", but I believe America was destined by G-d to be an example of greatness!

Have we lived up to that?

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Prober

Pardon the "corniness", but I believe America was destined by G-d to be an example of greatness!

Have we lived up to that?

After all the brilliant minds came together and put our government into form function and motion, Benjamen Franklin was asked by a common "citizen" to be..."what kind of government do we have?"

With a bemused grin, the august gentleman replied "A Federal Republic...if you can keep it"...

Perhaps destined by God to be an example of greatness, but man is doing his best to screw it straight to hell...

Again, thanks for the opportunity to further my point Prober.

v/r

Joshua

[Dondi]

Originally Posted by Silas

Let me ask you a question. Why dont you believe that God isnt Sovereign in salvation?

I do. God initiated salvation, but it is up to man to respond. It's that free will thing again.

Just because God is soveriegn doesn't mean that He doesn't give latitude to our choices.



I believe that within God's soveriegn will He has established boundaries. Picture two circles on inside another. The outer circle represents the boundaries God has set up. If man tries to go beyond those boundaries, then God will act accordingly to prevent him from doing so. In the scheme of world events, God controls just how far a certain dictator or ruler will go. Case in point would be Hitler. I believe that Hitler reached the point that God stopped him from going forward in trying to rule the world. The allies, through the soveriegnty of God, defeated Hitler, but not before he did much damage to the Jewish race in particular. Yet God used the tragedy of the Holocost to bring Jews back to the land of Israel and reform into a nation again, just as was predicted in Ezekiel 36.

The inner circle represents where God would want us to reside in His Will according to the scriptures being led by the Spirit. He would prefer we be in that inner circle, for it represents salvation to all that call upon Him. To be in the inner circle is to be in the center of His will for us. But we even we as Christians find it difficult to always be in that will. But if we are led by the Spirit, we will find ourselves there.

My main point in this illustration is to demonstrate how God is soveriegn, yet does allow man to have the element of free will within the boundaies of His Soveriegnty.

[bananabrain]

the jewish mystical tradition speaks of five dimensions, three of "world" (ie the three dimensions of space) one of "year" (ie the fourth dimension of time) and one of "soul" (the axis between good and evil). a given action at any point in this continuum (which can be characterised as a "5D hypercube") can be either good or evil, depending on who's doing what where and when - so turning off a light would be neutral during the week and "evil" (ie forbidden) on the Sabbath.

now, we can easily visualise a 3D or even a 4D trajectory in our minds, but a five-dimensional space presents difficulties to those untrained in this tradition. obviously, to G!D, this presents no such difficulty as the Divine would be able to Conceive and Visualise all possibilities which a trajectory might take in 5 dimensions - *simultaneously* of course, because time is, from G!D's poV, effectively just another variable in which Divine Vision can move at Will. in other words, time may be linear to us, but it is a point to G!D. this means that all outcomes effectively exist and do not exist *simultaneously*. in other words, something can be described as "predetermined" from the Divine Perspective (as every event is/has/will simultaneously happened, happening and happen - you see how language doesn't really cope with this!) whilst at the same time, because time is linear to us, be subject to our own human free will to sin, not to sin or to repent.

Q's quote from proverbs is *extremely* aposite on this point; king solomon (the traditional author of proverbs) being a master of mystical philosophy.

b'shalom

bananabrain

[Virtual_Cliff]

Silas, my scriptural reference is

Choose life

I can't give you chapter and verse right now but you'll know it's St Paul.
Choose life. There is choice.

I don't go along with all this fallen angels malarky. I agree with bananabrain, creation is a done deal from God's point of view. From ours, we're still making it up as we go along.

I don't know if you have kids. If you do, you know how it is. You lay down the rules and you hope they stick to them. If they don't, you're sad, because you know it'll all end in tears. But you still love them, and you wouldn't want to stand over them all the time forcing them to do the right thing. So you let them go, and tell them "I'm always there if you need me". Maybe that's why Jesus called God "Father".

[Dondi]

this presents no such difficulty as the Divine would be able to Conceive and Visualise all possibilities which a trajectory might take in 5 dimensions - *simultaneously* of course, because time is, from G!D's poV, effectively just another variable in which Divine Vision can move at Will. in other words, time may be linear to us, but it is a point to G!D. this means that all outcomes effectively exist and do not exist *simultaneously*. in other words, something can be described as "predetermined" from the Divine Perspective (as every event is/has/will simultaneously happened, happening and happen - you see how language doesn't really cope with this!) whilst at the same time, because time is linear to us, be subject to our own human free will to sin, not to sin or to repent.

I've thought along these lines very much. If God is eternal, then He encompasses all of eternity: past, present, and future.

[Prober]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Again, thanks for the opportunity to further my point Prober.

v/r

Joshua

You're welcome.