What good is the doctrine of Predestination?

[Silas]

For Q

I never said "man" was sovereign in salvation. I said man had choice to accept or reject salvation.

If salvation is based on man's choice, then man is sovereign in salvation. Man would have the last word on if he is saved or not.

I never said God's fore knowledge of man's choice was reason for predestination, either. I said God is sovereign in offering man salvation.

There are only two options to God's electing someone to salvation: 1. God foresaw who would have faith and therefore elected those people to salvation. 2. God chose in and of his own free will, the right as Sovereign ruler of the universe, to elect by grace, one guilty sinner over another.

What I said is that God knows every possibilty that the universe (man included), can come to (I don't need conjecture on that point).

I agree.

And what I said is that the book of life is not "OPENED" until the day of judgement.

The names written in the book of Life were written before the worlds were. The names therein were there before the people came into existence; no one written in that book will be taken out. I base this on Romans 8:30. "And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified." Notice that there are no drop outs from the called ones. They are predestined to be justified and glorified.

And what I said was that a man can change his destiny up unto the point of death (that is he can accept the salvation of Jesus in his dying moments, but after...no).

This contradicts too many scripture, e.g., John 10:27-29, Proverb 16:4, etc., and so I'll have to label it conjecture until you can prove otherwise from scripture.

As far as Romans 8 and 1 Peter, this is communication to those who have chosen to accept Christ. At the time, my friend, not everyone knew Jesus. But those that did and accepted His gift were chosen

Where do you get that from the text? No where does it say "God foresaw faith." You would have to add that in to make your presuppossition of "free will" or "self-determining choice" make sense. I would insist on leaving the scripture as is and understand "foreknow" in the same sense as Jesus is foreknown in 1Peter 1:20 or the way God knew Israel in Amos 3:1-2, or the way God foreknew his people in Romans 11:1–2, etc.

Remember, this was written at a time when few were selected to have known Jesus.

This contradicts too many scripture. Jesus' sheep was already "foreknown from before the worlds were, or before the foundations of the world."

It was a fledgling "faith", and much depended upon the few to make or break that new faith. These were also paramount in continuing the new faith "many are called, few are chosen".

Here again you make man sovereign in salvation because you assume that God elects a man based on supposition of someone's foreseen faith. I maintain that cannot be the case for three reasons: 1. No one seeks God to even find Him (Romans 3:11) 2. No one can come to Christ in faith unless the Father first draw them (John 6:44), and 3., God gives the gift of saving faith to whom he wills. Remember, "it is not up to the man that wills or runs, but of God who shows mercy." "Salvation is of the Lord."

[Silas]

Originally Posted by Dondi

I do. God initiated salvation, but it is up to man to respond. It's that free will thing again.

Just because God is soveriegn doesn't mean that He doesn't give latitude to our choices.

Attachment 351

I believe that within God's soveriegn will He has established boundaries. Picture two circles on inside another. The outer circle represents the boundaries God has set up. If man tries to go beyond those boundaries, then God will act accordingly to prevent him from doing so. In the scheme of world events, God controls just how far a certain dictator or ruler will go. Case in point would be Hitler. I believe that Hitler reached the point that God stopped him from going forward in trying to rule the world. The allies, through the soveriegnty of God, defeated Hitler, but not before he did much damage to the Jewish race in particular. Yet God used the tragedy of the Holocost to bring Jews back to the land of Israel and reform into a nation again, just as was predicted in Ezekiel 36.

The inner circle represents where God would want us to reside in His Will according to the scriptures being led by the Spirit. He would prefer we be in that inner circle, for it represents salvation to all that call upon Him. To be in the inner circle is to be in the center of His will for us. But we even we as Christians find it difficult to always be in that will. But if we are led by the Spirit, we will find ourselves there.

My main point in this illustration is to demonstrate how God is soveriegn, yet does allow man to have the element of free will within the boundaies of His Soveriegnty.

I agree that man has a free will and that God uses man's free choices as means to bring about certain ends. But, I dont agree that certain men and certian circumstances occure by accident. For instance: I believe it was God who put Hilter in power. God is the one who raises up kings/rulers (good or bad) and puts people in power. That said, if you believe that God left man to make a self-determining choice in his salvation, I have one question. How could a man dead in sin (John 8:34), who cannot understand spiritual things, namely the gospel (1Cor 2:14), and who cannot keep any of God's laws (Romans 8:7), choose within himself the abality to keep the highest law - namely to deny self and follow after Christ? Futhermore, how can the natural man do this amazing thing when he does not even seek to find God (Romans 3:11)?

[Silas]

Doni,

The following scripture is a good picture for what occurs in any of us that are saved:

"And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul." (Acts 16:14)

In our natural state, we do not understand spiritual things and the gospel to us is foolish. Jesus said, "unless you are born again you cannot even 'see' the kingdom of God." God said that in regeneration (the born again process) He is the one that starts it (and ends it). For scriptural proof, note Ezk 36:25-27. We are all dead like Lazarus. We cannot hear God's call or understand his truth. We are totally seperated from Him and willingly so. And, like Lazarus, God commands us to hear and raise, and we do. Like Lydia in the book of Acts, the Lord has to open our hearts for us to hear before we can ever pay serious attention to the gospel. God breathes on dry and dead bones and gives them life again. Pior to God doing a work in man, it is impossible for anyone to come to Christ. No one loves him pior to convertion.

[bananabrain]

hitler was *elected* by human beings. they had a choice to do so or not. similarly, they had a choice to behave the way they did or not and are, i believe, Judged on that choice. hitler had the same choices. as someone said once, we should not ask "where was G!D in the holocaust?" but rather "where was humanity?" - and, as we see, humanity intervened eventually, but too late for millions of my co-religionists, including my wife's family. G!D does not always Intervene to save us from ourselves and hasn't done for several thousand years. the paradigm is pharaoh - G!D may have "Hardened pharaoh's heart" but he still maintained his choice to follow his inclination or not. only after the first-born were killed did pharaoh change his mind - and then only temporarily.

saying that G!D "put hitler in power" is an insult to G!D and a denial of the choice we made in the garden of eden to manage our own affairs.

b'shalom

bananabrain

[Prober]

Originally Posted by bananabrain

we should not ask "where was G!D in the holocaust?" but rather "where was humanity?"

THIS is the point! Each person can (could have) stand up and say "I will not be a part of this. This is wrong"!

- and, as we see, humanity intervened eventually, but too late for millions of my co-religionists, including my wife's family.

Sorry B...

saying that G!D "put hitler in power" is an insult to G!D and a denial of the choice we made in the garden of eden to manage our own affairs.

b'shalom

bananabrain

[Silas]

Originally Posted by bananabrain

hitler was *elected* by human beings. they had a choice to do so or not. similarly, they had a choice to behave the way they did or not and are, i believe, Judged on that choice. hitler had the same choices. as someone said once, we should not ask "where was G!D in the holocaust?" but rather "where was humanity?" - and, as we see, humanity intervened eventually, but too late for millions of my co-religionists, including my wife's family. G!D does not always Intervene to save us from ourselves and hasn't done for several thousand years. the paradigm is pharaoh - G!D may have "Hardened pharaoh's heart" but he still maintained his choice to follow his inclination or not. only after the first-born were killed did pharaoh change his mind - and then only temporarily.

saying that G!D "put hitler in power" is an insult to G!D and a denial of the choice we made in the garden of eden to manage our own affairs.

b'shalom

bananabrain

To say that Hilter rose to power by his own will or because of circumstance is to demote God to someone who isnt in total control. In one of his letters to Erasmus, Luther said, "Your thoughts of God are too human". I think this is the problem with a lot of people today. We've unknownly traded scripture for conjecture and what we think God is like. I think it is clear from scripture that God is the one who puts people in power. I am not saying that man are robots or pupets and have no wills - we do have choice - we are moral agents responsible for our actions. That said however, I affirm from scripture that God is sovereign and that He is "The Governor among the nations" (Ps. 22:28),setting up kingdoms, overthrowing empires, and determining the course of dynasties as pleaseth Him best. Futhermore, that He is the Most High, doing according to His will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth, so that none can stay His hand or say unto Him what doest Thou? (Dan. 4:35). God is sovereign! Heis the Almighty, the Possessor of all power in heaven and earth, so that none can defeat His counsels, thwart His purpose, or resist His will (Ps. 115:3). To say that God put Hitler in power is to be biblical and to stand in awe of His wise counsel.

To declare that the Creator’s plans has been frustrated by sin, is to dethrone God. To suggest that God was taken by surprise by Hitler's raise to power or his choice in the holocus and that He is now attempting to remedy an unforeseen calamity, is to degrade the Most High to the level of a finite, erring mortal. To argue that man is the determiner of his own destiny, and that therefore he has the power to checkmate his Maker, is to strip God of the attribute of Omnipotence. To say that the creature has burst the hounds assigned by his Creator, and that God is now practically a helpless Spectator before the sin and suffering entailed by Adam’s fall, is to repudiate the express declaration of Holy Scripture, namely, "Surely the wrath of man shall praise Thee: the remainder of wrath shalt Thou restrain"(Ps. 76:10). In a word, to deny the sovereignty of God is to enter upon a path which, if followed to its logical end, is to arrive at blank atheism.

[Silas]

Originally Posted by bananabrain

hitler was *elected* by human beings. they had a choice to do so or not. similarly, they had a choice to behave the way they did or not and are, i believe, Judged on that choice. hitler had the same choices. as someone said once, we should not ask "where was G!D in the holocaust?" but rather "where was humanity?" - and, as we see, humanity intervened eventually, but too late for millions of my co-religionists, including my wife's family. G!D does not always Intervene to save us from ourselves and hasn't done for several thousand years. the paradigm is pharaoh - G!D may have "Hardened pharaoh's heart" but he still maintained his choice to follow his inclination or not. only after the first-born were killed did pharaoh change his mind - and then only temporarily.

saying that G!D "put hitler in power" is an insult to G!D and a denial of the choice we made in the garden of eden to manage our own affairs.

b'shalom

bananabrain

To say that Hilter rose to power by his own will or because of circumstance is to demote God to someone who isnt in total control. In one of his letters to Erasmus, Luther said, "Your thoughts of God are too human". I think this is the problem with a lot of people today. We've unknownly traded scripture for conjecture and what we think God is like. I think it is clear from scripture that God is the one who puts people in power. I am not saying that man are robots or pupets and have no wills - we do have choice - we are moral agents responsible for our actions. That said however, I affirm from scripture that God is sovereign and that He is "The Governor among the nations" (Ps. 22:28),setting up kingdoms, overthrowing empires, and determining the course of dynasties as pleaseth Him best. Futhermore, that He is the Most High, doing according to His will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth, so that none can stay His hand or say unto Him what doest Thou? (Dan. 4:35). God is sovereign! Heis the Almighty, the Possessor of all power in heaven and earth, so that none can defeat His counsels, thwart His purpose, or resist His will (Ps. 115:3). To say that God put Hitler in power is to be biblical and to stand in awe of His wise counsel.

To declare that the Creator’s plans has been frustrated by sin, is to dethrone God. To suggest that God was taken by surprise by Hitler's raise to power or his choice in the holocus and that He is now attempting to remedy an unforeseen calamity, is to degrade the Most High to the level of a finite, erring mortal. To argue that man is the determiner of his own destiny, and that therefore he has the power to checkmate his Maker, is to strip God of the attribute of Omnipotence. To say that the creature has burst the hounds assigned by his Creator, and that God is now practically a helpless Spectator before the sin and suffering entailed by Adam’s fall, is to repudiate the express declaration of Holy Scripture, namely, "Surely the wrath of man shall praise Thee: the remainder of wrath shalt Thou restrain"(Ps. 76:10). In a word, to deny the sovereignty of God is to enter upon a path which, if followed to its logical end, is to arrive at blank atheism.

[Dondi]

Originally Posted by Silas

I agree that man has a free will and that God uses man's free choices as means to bring about certain ends. But, I dont agree that certain men and certian circumstances occure by accident. For instance: I believe it was God who put Hilter in power. God is the one who raises up kings/rulers (good or bad) and puts people in power. That said, if you believe that God left man to make a self-determining choice in his salvation, I have one question. How could a man dead in sin (John 8:34), who cannot understand spiritual things, namely the gospel (1Cor 2:14), and who cannot keep any of God's laws (Romans 8:7), choose within himself the abality to keep the highest law - namely to deny self and follow after Christ? Futhermore, how can the natural man do this amazing thing when he does not even seek to find God (Romans 3:11)?

A drowning man knows when he is drowning, even though he is helpless to help himself. And he understands that when one tosses a life preserver, he needs to grab it and hold on.

As far a Hitler, are you saying that it was God's will that 6 million Jews would perish in the Holocost and that unspeakable evil would fall on those subjected to the "medical experiements" conducted by our good Doctor Josef Mengele?

[Silas]

Originally Posted by Dondi

A drowning man knows when he is drowning, even though he is helpless to help himself. And he understands that when one tosses a life preserver, he needs to grab it and hold on.

As far a Hitler, are you saying that it was God's will that 6 million Jews would perish in the Holocost and that unspeakable evil would fall on those subjected to the "medical experiements" conducted by our good Doctor Josef Mengele?

You're right about the drowing man. About a God hating sinner now, that is another story. The sinner knows that he is going down intrinsictly, but he supresses the truth in unrighteousness that he might continue to enjoy sin's pleasure. Do not assume that man wants God prior to convertion. As for the Holocost, my answer is Amos 3:6..."Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?" Nothing ever happens apart from God's will.

[Prober]

If Hitler were drowning, would a person be obligated to save him?

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Prober

If Hitler were drowning, would a person be obligated to save him?

If he/she were a US Coast Guardsman...yes.

[Prober]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

If he/she were a US Coast Guardsman...yes.

Good answer! Glad you're watching things!

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Silas

For Q

I never said "man" was sovereign in salvation. I said man had choice to accept or reject salvation.

If salvation is based on man's choice, then man is sovereign in salvation. Man would have the last word on if he is saved or not.

I never said God's fore knowledge of man's choice was reason for predestination, either. I said God is sovereign in offering man salvation.

There are only two options to God's electing someone to salvation: 1. God foresaw who would have faith and therefore elected those people to salvation. 2. God chose in and of his own free will, the right as Sovereign ruler of the universe, to elect by grace, one guilty sinner over another.

What I said is that God knows every possibilty that the universe (man included), can come to (I don't need conjecture on that point).

I agree.

And what I said is that the book of life is not "OPENED" until the day of judgement.

The names written in the book of Life were written before the worlds were. The names therein were there before the people came into existence; no one written in that book will be taken out. I base this on Romans 8:30. "And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified." Notice that there are no drop outs from the called ones. They are predestined to be justified and glorified.

And what I said was that a man can change his destiny up unto the point of death (that is he can accept the salvation of Jesus in his dying moments, but after...no).

This contradicts too many scripture, e.g., John 10:27-29, Proverb 16:4, etc., and so I'll have to label it conjecture until you can prove otherwise from scripture.

As far as Romans 8 and 1 Peter, this is communication to those who have chosen to accept Christ. At the time, my friend, not everyone knew Jesus. But those that did and accepted His gift were chosen

Where do you get that from the text? No where does it say "God foresaw faith." You would have to add that in to make your presuppossition of "free will" or "self-determining choice" make sense. I would insist on leaving the scripture as is and understand "foreknow" in the same sense as Jesus is foreknown in 1Peter 1:20 or the way God knew Israel in Amos 3:1-2, or the way God foreknew his people in Romans 11:1–2, etc.

Remember, this was written at a time when few were selected to have known Jesus.

This contradicts too many scripture. Jesus' sheep was already "foreknown from before the worlds were, or before the foundations of the world."

It was a fledgling "faith", and much depended upon the few to make or break that new faith. These were also paramount in continuing the new faith "many are called, few are chosen".

Here again you make man sovereign in salvation because you assume that God elects a man based on supposition of someone's foreseen faith. I maintain that cannot be the case for three reasons: 1. No one seeks God to even find Him (Romans 3:11) 2. No one can come to Christ in faith unless the Father first draw them (John 6:44), and 3., God gives the gift of saving faith to whom he wills. Remember, "it is not up to the man that wills or runs, but of God who shows mercy." "Salvation is of the Lord."

Thank you for directing your thoughts at mine. Choosing salvation that is offered is man's choice and man's choice alone. God has made this clear.

We are all drowning, and God throws the rope to pull us out of our mire. We must grab the rope, or not. God has declared He will do no more (i.e. He will not make our bodies or minds accept the salvation).

Does not mean that if we are willing to grab the rope but are too weak to do so that He won't intervene. In fact, in such a case He will jump into the water to help us to shore.

God's plan for man is simple. Don't try to make it complex. Man has choice...yes, or no.

v/r

Joshua

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Prober

Good answer! Glad you're watching things!

Ours is not to judge, but to do and pray (or pray then do).

Maybe that could be called predestination...

[Silas]

Quahom1

Thank you for directing your thoughts at mine. Choosing salvation that is offered is man's choice and man's choice alone. God has made this clear.

Where? Surely you can give one verse where God says that salvation is of man or that man has the final say in his salvation? I dont see any. I do see manifold evidence that salvation is of the Lord and he saves whomever He wills though.

We are all drowning, and God throws the rope to pull us out of our mire. We must grab the rope, or not. God has declared He will do no more (i.e. He will not make our bodies or minds accept the salvation).

We arent drowing, but dead.And, dead men acant grap God's rope (1Cor. 2:14).


God's plan for man is simple. Don't try to make it complex. Man has
choice...yes, or no.

Man does have choice! Who ever chose Him? Who ever came to Christ without the Father having first to draw them? There has never been a man to first choose God. God opens blind eyes, gives ears to to deaf, replaces hard hearts with hearts of flesh, and calls dead sinners to life in Christ. All men apart from Christ are in willing rebellion to God. "None seek after God!"