What good is the doctrine of Predestination? - Page 4

wil · 02-16-2007, 07:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prober

If Hitler were drowning, would a person be obligated to save him?

Q's answer in regard to a job is correct. But as one who knows that their is a spark of divinity in all, the answer is the same. Always makes one wonder, if he had been raised in a family of love and compassion what would have been his legacy. Or what if someone, somewhere offerred him a different choice. He was obviously a powerful motivator, an amazing speaker, an astute planner and delegator, had those traits been used to benefit society instead of having been warped where would the world be?

Maybe the drowning and saving question isn't just an illustration, but actually something that someone needed to do a long time ago....

Dondi · 02-16-2007, 08:54 PM

Silas,

In regard to 1 Cor. 2:14, since you are so enamored by this verse:

"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

How does one first know about the things of God? Isn't it by the Word of God? Look at an earlier verse in that same chapter:

"And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:" - 1 Cor. 1:4

We know that faith comes by hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17), and that the Word is a two-edged sword (Hebrews 4:12).

But who is it that God has determined to carry the Gospel into the world?

"How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?" - Romans 10:14

But are we as Christians always obedient to that call? Unfortunately, no.

So if someone doesn't hear the Gospel, then, is it God's fault? no.

Let's suppose for a moment that there is a girl who is lost and one of her best friends is a Christian. But this friend is shy and never gets around to sharing the Gospel to her. But she decides to tell the girl the Gospel tomorrow.

The girl goes shopping that night at a mall in a holiday card shop looking for a Valentine to give to her boyfriend. Suddenly, a deranged gunman open fires and hits the girl, killing her instantly.

She never got a chance to hear the Gospel, and hence was still lost when she died.

Whose fault is it? The friend who didn't obey in telling the Gospel.

Now it may very well be that the girl would have rejected the Gospel anyway, but at least she would have had a chance to listen to God's Word and heed the power of the Holy Spirit in the preaching of the Gospel.

So was it God's will that this girl be lost?

If you say yes, then you are saying that God purposely caused the friend to be shy, and thus never shared the Gospel, wouldn't you?

Silas · 02-16-2007, 09:28 PM

Dondi

In regard to 1 Cor. 2:14, since you are so enamored by this verse:

How does one first know about the things of God? Isn't it by the Word of God? Look at an earlier verse in that same chapter:

"And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:" - 1 Cor. 1:4

We know that faith comes by hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17), and that the Word is a two-edged sword (Hebrews 4:12).

LOL @ "since you are so enamored by this verse." OK so you meant 1 Cor 2:4 (not 1:4). Guess what, I agree with you. It is by the word of God we do believe; wether hearing it or reading it, etc. Yet, Dondi, this does not elimate your problem of predestination. Who believes besides those God calls to faith? Lets stay in 1 Cor. Note 1 Cor 1:23-24

"But we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God."

So you see, you still have a problem with self determination. Only those "called out" understand the spiritual truth in the gospel.

But who is it that God has determined to carry the Gospel into the world?

Called out ones - Christians. You qouted the right scripture:

"How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?" - Romans 10:14

But are we as Christians always obedient to that call? Unfortunately, no. So if someone doesn't hear the Gospel, then, is it God's fault? no.

God is not willing that any of his elect perish, but that all of them come to repentence in Christ (2Peter 3:9). Therefore, He will always get the gospel (the means by which God saves) to them that are His, who are all over the earth and from every tounge, nation, and tribe. Thats why God raises up missionaries after all.

Let's suppose for a moment that there is a girl who is lost and one of her best friends is a Christian. But this friend is shy and never gets around to sharing the Gospel to her. But she decides to tell the girl the Gospel tomorrow. The girl goes shopping that night at a mall in a holiday card shop looking for a Valentine to give to her boyfriend. Suddenly, a deranged gunman open fires and hits the girl, killing her instantly. She never got a chance to hear the Gospel, and hence was still lost when she died. Whose fault is it? The friend who didn't obey in telling the Gospel. Now it may very well be that the girl would have rejected the Gospel anyway, but at least she would have had a chance to listen to God's Word and heed the power of the Holy Spirit in the preaching of the Gospel. So was it God's will that this girl be lost?

Notice something really important about God's sovereignity. I take you to Matthew 11:20-24:

"Then he began to denounce the cities where most of his mighty works had been done, because they did not repent. 'Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. But I tell you, it will be more bearable on the day of judgment for Tyre and Sidon than for you. And you, Capernaum, will you be exalted to heaven? You will be brought down to Hades. For if the mighty works done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. But I tell you that it will be more tolerable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom than for you.'”

Your obvious question, Dondi, should be, "why didnt God do those works in Sidon and Sodom? Jesus said that if the miricles were done in Sodom and Sidon, those cities wouldnt have been judged. Why didnt God give them a sign? The answer to that question is my answer to your question. Let me know if you figure it out.

If you say yes, then you are saying that God purposely caused the friend to be shy, and thus never shared the Gospel, wouldn't you?

God never causes someone to do evil (at least in the same sense as we do or mean evil), but only causes people to do good. If God did not do signs in some cities to give people "a chance to repent", then that is his right as God. God is not obligated to save anyone. God is sovereign in all that He does and no one can say to Him, "what have you done?" or "why have you done this?" The truth is, some people will never hear the gospel and more will never even understand its meaning is hidden from them, as Jesus (Mark 4:10-12). That is a hard saying for many (it is for me at times).

cyberpi · 02-16-2007, 10:47 PM

The two groups did proclaim, "God WILLS it", and "God is great", before riding to slay each other. With the peace that came from their absence, maybe they were right.

Quahom1 · 02-16-2007, 11:00 PM

Horses ass, sir. I choose. God offers. I accept or do not accept. I am not about to comb the bible to satisfiy your personal beliefs...because the entire Bible is about man choosing God or not.

If you "really want to know" Silas...go search for your self...just like I did...

v/r

Joshua

Silas · 02-17-2007, 01:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Horses ass, sir. I choose. God offers. I accept or do not accept. I am not about to comb the bible to satisfiy your personal beliefs...because the entire Bible is about man choosing God or not.

If you "really want to know" Silas...go search for your self...just like I did...

v/r

Joshua

Actually, if you are in Christ, you are there because he first choose you (you chose after he made you willingly in the day of salvation). You, like all everyone else, were lost and running away from him willingly. The entire Bible is about the glory of God in Christ. Its His story.

cyberpi · 02-17-2007, 01:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cyberpi

The two groups did proclaim, "God WILLS it", and "God is great", before riding to slay each other. With the peace that came from their absence, maybe they were right.

... drawn from movie: 'Kingdom of Heaven'. I was not directly referring to anyone here.

Quahom1 · 02-17-2007, 04:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silas

Actually, if you are in Christ, you are there because he first choose you (you chose after he made you willingly in the day of salvation). You, like all everyone else, were lost and running away from him willingly. The entire Bible is about the glory of God in Christ. Its His story.

That is irrelevant, now isn't it...just because Jesus chooses one, does not mean the one will choose Jesus...

That is the whole point of free will.

v/r

Joshua

wil · 02-17-2007, 05:17 AM

I think we are all destined, predestined to eventually return to source, G-d.

Dor · 02-17-2007, 05:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wil

I think we are all destined, predestined to eventually return to source, G-d.

That is unbiblical and considered heresy to many.

wil · 02-17-2007, 06:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dor

That is unbiblical and considered heresy to many.

It is a truly awful and hateful possibility...

Zagreus · 02-17-2007, 08:40 AM

I want a hard copy of the last three posts ... and from now on, when I'm having a bad day, I will look upon this printout and smile.

...

(After which I will immediately grin, and burst into uncontrollable, hysteric laughter, as I did just now!

)

Tariki · 02-17-2007, 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wil

I think we are all destined, predestined to eventually return to source, G-d.

I was just browsing through this thread and came across this, and it did get me considering the original question and my thoughts upon it. (Perhaps another one for the funny farm, Zagreus!!

) I would say the doctrine would be good if all were predestined to salvation - the double destiny teaching seems to involve quite a tangled web. But then, that's just my take.........

Biblical? Well, Karl Barth, the great Protestant theologian of the twentieth century, who knew the Bible far better than I, has been reported to have said...........Perculiar Christendom, whose most pressing problem seems to consist in this, that God's grace in this direction should be too free, that hell, instead of being amply populated, might one day perhaps be found to be empty

So he, at least , seemed to be leaving the door open........

It just seems to me that when we meet and face any other human being who we find believes differently from ourselves, if we had the faith that eventually there was to be a true reconciliation between us, the situation would begin to offer the potential for genuine communion - even a possible mutual transformation and enrichment. Conversely, if in facing them, we believe that unless they eventually come to share our own beliefs they will ultimately be eternally severed from us, then such a potential seems to fall away.

Dondi · 02-17-2007, 03:03 PM

My point in this whole thread is why should it matter to us the doctrine of predestination? Why is Silas so bent on presenting this issue?

If we do the will of the Lord, preach the gospel to every creature, and love others as ourselves, live according to His Word, implore people to repent and believe the Gospel, how does our knowledge of predestination, whether true or not, even need to affect our life in the Lord? We are still commanded to do these things regardless. It seems to me that it is pointless to go on rambling back and forth on this issue. it is a vain arguement because obviously lines in the sand are drawn and the two camps will never agree with the issue.

Quite frankly, the thought that God preordains some to go to hell is abhorant to me. If I cannot believe in a gracious God, who is fair to everyone, then how can that be a God of Love. No sir, we all have a choice, we are all without excuse (Romans 1). The knowledge of God is implanted in our conscience and is proclaimed in creation. It is up to us to respond, or not to respond, to that call.

I'm done with this topic. I do not see any benefit in further discussion, in this post or any other simliar post, whatsoever. Our's is not to know the reason why, but to do. So G'day!

Silas · 02-18-2007, 02:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quahom1

That is irrelevant, now isn't it...just because Jesus chooses one, does not mean the one will choose Jesus...

That is the whole point of free will.

v/r

Joshua

Man has a free will that is ironically enslaved to sin. Therefore, man willingly chooses things consistant to his nature. Sinful men love sin more than God and darkness more than light. They choose that. They want that. They're happy with their choice. God chooses some to salvation to display his mercy. Those whom God chooses will be conformed into the image of his Son, Jesus. They are predestined to salvation.